[Vision2020] Another perspective on free speech
Paul Rumelhart
godshatter at yahoo.com
Thu Sep 27 20:49:21 PDT 2012
I was going to look for inflammatory remarks meant to incite violence.
It would be really strange, since they would have to be condemning their
own video. They would have to be saying things like "does this video
piss you off? Then DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!" Otherwise, they are merely
expressing their opinion of Islam, as unflattering as it might be, which
I don't count as a valid reason for killing others.
Paul
On 09/27/2012 04:04 PM, Joe Campbell wrote:
> Paul,
>
> You think you can answer that question, whether or not the film
> incited riots or was just expressing a point of view? Ron's post
> speaks to issues of cultural differences in regard to these instances.
> It makes an excellent case (intended or not) that if you knew anything
> about the people the film was intended to irritate, the probability of
> riot was high. (I've posted before that I don't think this is reason
> to legally censor the film but that is a complex issue.)
>
> But my real question is, how can you -- a non-Muslim -- presume to
> decide whether or not a film that is apparently offensive to most
> Muslims is offensive enough to incite riots? Unless you are completely
> arrogant or out of touch with your own humanity, you have to agree
> that if the majority of Muslims say it is offensive enough to incite
> riots (and given that riots ensued), then it is offensive enough. I
> don't see what you and your life experiences could add to this matter.
>
> I and others, at any rate, would be better off listening to Muslims on
> this matter than to you.
>
> Joe
>
> On Sep 27, 2012, at 3:25 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com
> <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
>> It's still out there on YouTube, just search for it. When I get a
>> chance, I'll watch the trailer so I can tell if it's trying to incite
>> riots or just expressing a point of view.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com
>> <mailto:philosopher.joe at gmail.com>>
>> *To:* Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com <mailto:thansen at moscow.com>>
>> *Cc:* viz <vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, September 27, 2012 3:03 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Another perspective on free speech
>>
>> Direct threats to one's life have a way of controlling speech that
>> the law could never hope to achieve. Joe
>>
>> On Sep 27, 2012, at 2:56 PM, Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com
>> <mailto:thansen at moscow.com>> wrote:
>>
>>> Here is a snapshot of the site connected by the "Innocence of
>>> Muslims" link . . .
>>>
>>> <image.png>
>>>
>>> Pop quiz, Mr. Dredge: Who removed the video?
>>>
>>> Hint: visit the link at:
>>>
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYQgacE2OW0
>>>
>>> Seeya at the polls, Moscow, because . . .
>>>
>>> "Moscow Cares"
>>> http://www.MoscowCares.com <http://www.moscowcares.com/>
>>> Tom Hansen
>>> Moscow, Idaho
>>>
>>> "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students. The
>>> college students are not very active in local elections (thank
>>> goodness!)."
>>>
>>> - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
>>>
>>> On Sep 27, 2012, at 2:44 PM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com
>>> <mailto:scooterd408 at hotmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Removed? Say it ain't so. So much for the often ballyhooed and
>>>> yet poorly understood 'freedom of speech'...
>>>>
>>>> I think it's safe to finally say at this point: 'Nuff said'.
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> From: moscowcares at moscow.com <mailto:moscowcares at moscow.com>
>>>> Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 13:53:22 -0700
>>>> To: thansen at moscow.com <mailto:thansen at moscow.com>
>>>> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Another perspective on free speech
>>>>
>>>> The video trailer for "Innocence of Muslims" has been removed and
>>>> is no longer available online.
>>>>
>>>> However, I did download it just before I posted the link. Maybe
>>>> later I will make copies available off-list and off-line . . . or
>>>> maybe I'll stash it in my digital archives . . . to be uncovered
>>>> and reviewed years from now.
>>>>
>>>> Seeya at the polls, Moscow, because . . .
>>>>
>>>> "Moscow Cares"
>>>> http://www.MoscowCares.com <http://www.moscowcares.com/>
>>>> Tom Hansen
>>>> Moscow, Idaho
>>>>
>>>> "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students. The
>>>> college students are not very active in local elections (thank
>>>> goodness!)."
>>>>
>>>> - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
>>>>
>>>> On Sep 27, 2012, at 1:44 PM, Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com
>>>> <mailto:thansen at moscow.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> From my posting two weeks ago
>>>>
>>>> "Innocence of Muslims"
>>>> http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2012-September/085732.html
>>>>
>>>> Seeya at the polls, Moscow, because . . .
>>>>
>>>> "Moscow Cares"
>>>> http://www.MoscowCares.com <http://www.moscowcares.com/>
>>>> Tom Hansen
>>>> Moscow, Idaho
>>>>
>>>> "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students.
>>>> The college students are not very active in local elections
>>>> (thank goodness!)."
>>>>
>>>> - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
>>>>
>>>> On Sep 27, 2012, at 1:28 PM, Paul Rumelhart
>>>> <godshatter at yahoo.com <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Did the trailer for "The Innocence of Muslims" that was
>>>> posted to YouTube actually incite hatred against racial or
>>>> religious groups, or did it just express hatred towards
>>>> racial or religious groups? There is a difference. I ask
>>>> because I haven't seen this YouTube video.
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> *From:* Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com
>>>> <mailto:scooterd408 at hotmail.com>>
>>>> *To:* philosopher.joe at gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:philosopher.joe at gmail.com>;
>>>> art.deco.studios at gmail.com <mailto:art.deco.studios at gmail.com>
>>>> *Cc:* viz <vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>> <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>>
>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, September 27, 2012 12:53 PM
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Another perspective on free speech
>>>>
>>>> What particular section of the article are you not in
>>>> agreement with? It seems to me that the main tenet is this
>>>> paragraph:
>>>>
>>>> 'Americans seem curiously unaware that, in many countries,
>>>> thoughtful, modern, secular-minded people don't reject free
>>>> speech -- they reject the claim that it protects /The
>>>> Innocence of Muslims./ Under the most advanced legal norms
>>>> in their countries, free speech doesn't include the right
>>>> to incite hatred against racial or religious groups.'
>>>>
>>>> Seems like just a statement of fact to me that Americans
>>>> seem curiously unaware about how so-called 'free speech' is
>>>> thought of in many countries (let alone our own).
>>>>
>>>> -Scott
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> From: philosopher.joe at gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
>>>> Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 12:00:32 -0700
>>>> To: art.deco.studios at gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:art.deco.studios at gmail.com>
>>>> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Another perspective on free speech
>>>>
>>>> I agree with this entirely. Joe
>>>>
>>>> On Sep 27, 2012, at 11:53 AM, Art Deco
>>>> <art.deco.studios at gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:art.deco.studios at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I do not agree with this perspective of restricting
>>>> free speech.
>>>>
>>>> Religious dogma and some of the actions they engender
>>>> including torture, war, forced conversion, restriction
>>>> of freedoms and rights, cliterectomy, etc are extremely
>>>> harmful to humankind. Restricting free expression and
>>>> the use of various rhetorical devices only serves to
>>>> protect and promulgate these harmful beliefs and actions
>>>>
>>>> In the search for truth and humane values, why should
>>>> religious beliefs be exempted from analysis,
>>>> investigation, the the uses of rhetorical devices used
>>>> to examine and discuss all other kinds of belief?
>>>>
>>>> It is important to note that unlike many other everyday
>>>> beliefs like gravity there is no agreement on any
>>>> religious truth out of the multitude of those offered
>>>> to or forced upon humankind. Worse yet, there is as of
>>>> now unlike gravity, measles, etc, no agreed upon method
>>>> to cull the true from the false and meaningless.
>>>>
>>>> It offended many when Galileo asserted that the earth
>>>> revolved around the sun, not the converse. Let the
>>>> search for truth be open, and if humor, insults,
>>>> derision, etc can help in that search, so be it.
>>>>
>>>> The same sort of statements above can be made about
>>>> political dogma also.
>>>>
>>>> w.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 1:23 PM, Ron Force
>>>> <rforce2003 at yahoo.com <mailto:rforce2003 at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/09/free-speech-and-the-1st-amendment-arent-always-the-same-thing/262894/
>>>>
>>>> Ron Force
>>>> Moscow Idaho USA
>>>>
>>>> =======================================================
>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>> http://www.fsr.net <http://www.fsr.net/>
>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>> <mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>> =======================================================
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
>>>> art.deco.studios at gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:art.deco.studios at gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =======================================================
>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>> http://www.fsr.net <http://www.fsr.net/>
>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>> =======================================================
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =======================================================
>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>> http://www.fsr.net <http://www.fsr.net/>
>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>> =======================================================
>>>>
>>>> =======================================================
>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>> http:// <http://www.fsr.net/>
>>>>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20120927/5b4c8d00/attachment-0001.html>
More information about the Vision2020
mailing list