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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">I was going to look for inflammatory
remarks meant to incite violence. It would be really strange,
since they would have to be condemning their own video. They
would have to be saying things like "does this video piss you
off? Then DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!" Otherwise, they are merely
expressing their opinion of Islam, as unflattering as it might be,
which I don't count as a valid reason for killing others.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
On 09/27/2012 04:04 PM, Joe Campbell wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CA+fbP8wr0ogvRJ_AVyxiF9HGhdak7BHdVmWYce=6AJ68VEi6rg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="auto">
<div>Paul, </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You think you can answer that question, whether or not the
film incited riots or was just expressing a point of view?
Ron's post speaks to issues of cultural differences in regard
to these instances. It makes an excellent case (intended or
not) that if you knew anything about the people the film was
intended to irritate, the probability of riot was high. (I've
posted before that I don't think this is reason to legally
censor the film but that is a complex issue.)<br>
<br>
But my real question is, how can you -- a non-Muslim --
presume to decide whether or not a film that is apparently
offensive to most Muslims is offensive enough to incite riots?
Unless you are completely arrogant or out of touch with your
own humanity, you have to agree that if the majority of
Muslims say it is offensive enough to incite riots (and given
that riots ensued), then it is offensive enough. I don't see
what you and your life experiences could add to this matter.<br>
<br>
I and others, at any rate, would be better off listening to
Muslims on this matter than to you. <br>
<br>
Joe<br>
<br>
On Sep 27, 2012, at 3:25 PM, Paul Rumelhart <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com"
target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<div><span></span></div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:times new roman,new
york,times,serif">It's still out there on YouTube, just
search for it. When I get a chance, I'll watch the
trailer so I can tell if it's trying to incite riots or
just expressing a point of view.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<div><span><br>
</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:times new roman,new
york,times,serif;font-size:12pt">
<div style="font-family:times new roman,new
york,times,serif;font-size:12pt">
<div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial">
<hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b>
Joe Campbell <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com"
target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b>
Tom Hansen <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank">thansen@moscow.com</a>>
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b>
viz <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"
target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b>
Thursday, September 27, 2012 3:03 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [Vision2020] Another perspective on free
speech<br>
</font> </div>
<br>
<div>
<div>
<div>Direct threats to one's life have a way of
controlling speech that the law could never hope
to achieve. Joe<br>
<br>
On Sep 27, 2012, at 2:56 PM, Tom Hansen <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow"
href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com"
target="_blank">thansen@moscow.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div>Here is a snapshot of the site connected
by the "Innocence of Muslims" link . . .</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><image.png></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Pop quiz, Mr. Dredge: Who removed the
video?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Hint: visit the link at:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span
style="font-size:15px;line-height:19px;white-space:nowrap"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow"
href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYQgacE2OW0"
target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYQgacE2OW0</a></span><br>
<br>
Seeya at the polls, Moscow, because . . .
<div><br>
</div>
<div>"Moscow Cares"</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
href="http://www.moscowcares.com/"
target="_blank">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a></div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>Tom Hansen</div>
<div>Moscow, Idaho</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>"We're a town of about 23,000 with
10,000 college students. The college
students are not very active in local
elections (thank goodness!)."</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>- Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
On Sep 27, 2012, at 2:44 PM, Scott Dredge
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow"
href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com"
target="_blank">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">Removed? Say it ain't
so. So much for the often ballyhooed
and yet poorly understood 'freedom of
speech'...<br>
<br>
I think it's safe to finally say at
this point: 'Nuff said'.<br>
<br>
<div>
<hr>From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
href="mailto:moscowcares@moscow.com"
target="_blank">moscowcares@moscow.com</a><br>
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 13:53:22
-0700<br>
To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com"
target="_blank">thansen@moscow.com</a><br>
CC: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"
target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Another
perspective on free speech<br>
<br>
<div>The video trailer for
"Innocence of Muslims" has been
removed and is no longer available
online.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>However, I did download it just
before I posted the link. Maybe
later I will make copies available
off-list and off-line . . . or
maybe I'll stash it in my digital
archives . . . to be uncovered and
reviewed years from now.<br>
<br>
Seeya at the polls, Moscow,
because . . .
<div><br>
</div>
<div>"Moscow Cares"</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
href="http://www.moscowcares.com/"
target="_blank">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a></div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>Tom Hansen</div>
<div>Moscow, Idaho</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>"We're a town of about
23,000 with 10,000 college
students. The college
students are not very active
in local elections (thank
goodness!)."</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>- Dale Courtney (March 28,
2007)</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
On Sep 27, 2012, at 1:44 PM, Tom
Hansen <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com"
target="_blank">thansen@moscow.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<div>From my posting two weeks
ago </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>"Innocence of Muslims"</div>
<div><span
style="font-size:15px;line-height:19px;white-space:nowrap"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
href="http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2012-September/085732.html"
target="_blank">http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2012-September/085732.html</a></span></div>
<div><br>
<span>Seeya at the polls,
Moscow, because . . .</span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>"Moscow Cares"</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
href="http://www.moscowcares.com/"
target="_blank">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a></div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>Tom Hansen</div>
<div>Moscow, Idaho</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>"We're a town of about
23,000 with 10,000 college
students. The college
students are not very
active in local elections
(thank goodness!)."</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>- Dale Courtney (March
28, 2007)</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
On Sep 27, 2012, at 1:28 PM,
Paul Rumelhart <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com"
target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<div
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:times
new roman,new
york,times,serif">Did the
trailer for "The Innocence
of Muslims" that was
posted to YouTube actually
incite hatred against
racial or religious
groups, or did it just
express hatred towards
racial or religious
groups? There is a
difference. I ask because
I haven't seen this
YouTube video.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<div><span><br>
</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:times
new roman,new
york,times,serif;font-size:12pt">
<div
style="font-family:times
new roman,new
york,times,serif;font-size:12pt">
<div dir="ltr"> <font
face="Arial">
<hr size="1"> <b><span
style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b> Scott Dredge <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com"
target="_blank">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>><br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com"
target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>;
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com"
target="_blank">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a>
<br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b>
viz <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"
target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>>
<br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b>
Thursday,
September 27, 2012
12:53 PM<br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [Vision2020]
Another
perspective on
free speech<br>
</font> </div>
<br>
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
What particular
section of the
article are you
not in agreement
with? It seems
to me that the
main tenet is
this paragraph:<br>
<br>
'Americans seem
curiously
unaware that, in
many countries,
thoughtful,
modern,
secular-minded
people don't
reject free
speech -- they
reject the claim
that it protects
<i>The Innocence
of Muslims.</i>
Under the most
advanced legal
norms in their
countries, free
speech doesn't
include the
right to incite
hatred against
racial or
religious
groups.'<br>
<br>
Seems like just
a statement of
fact to me that
Americans seem
curiously
unaware about
how so-called
'free speech' is
thought of in
many countries
(let alone our
own).<br>
<br>
-Scott<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>
<hr>From: <a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow"
href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com"
target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a><br>
Date: Thu, 27
Sep 2012
12:00:32 -0700<br>
To: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" target="_blank">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a><br>
CC: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
Subject: Re:
[Vision2020]
Another
perspective on
free speech<br>
<br>
<div>I agree
with this
entirely. Joe<br>
<br>
On Sep 27,
2012, at 11:53
AM, Art Deco
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" target="_blank">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
I do not agree
with this
perspective of
restricting
free speech.<br>
<br>
Religious
dogma and some
of the actions
they engender
including
torture, war,
forced
conversion,
restriction of
freedoms and
rights,
cliterectomy,
etc are
extremely
harmful to
humankind.
Restricting
free
expression and
the use of
various
rhetorical
devices only
serves to
protect and
promulgate
these harmful
beliefs and
actions<br>
<br>
In the search
for truth and
humane values,
why should
religious
beliefs be
exempted from
analysis,
investigation,
the the uses
of rhetorical
devices used
to examine and
discuss all
other kinds of
belief?<br>
<br>
It is
important to
note that
unlike many
other everyday
beliefs like
gravity there
is no
agreement on
any religious
truth out of
the multitude
of those
offered to or
forced upon
humankind.
Worse yet,
there is as of
now unlike
gravity,
measles, etc,
no agreed upon
method to cull
the true from
the false and
meaningless.<br>
<br>
It offended
many when
Galileo
asserted that
the earth
revolved
around the
sun, not the
converse. Let
the search for
truth be open,
and if humor,
insults,
derision, etc
can help in
that search,
so be it.<br>
<br>
The same sort
of statements
above can be
made about
political
dogma also.<br>
<br>
w.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On Thu,
Sep 27, 2012
at 1:23 PM,
Ron Force <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow" href="mailto:rforce2003@yahoo.com"
target="_blank">rforce2003@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote
style="border-left:1px
#ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
<div><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
href="http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/09/free-speech-and-the-1st-amendment-arent-always-the-same-thing/262894/"
target="_blank">http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/09/free-speech-and-the-1st-amendment-arent-always-the-same-thing/262894/</a> <span><font
color="#888888"><span></span></font></span></div>
<span><font
color="#888888">
<div> </div>
<div>Ron Force<br>
Moscow Idaho
USA</div>
</font></span></div>
</div>
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<br>
-- <br>
Art Deco
(Wayne A. Fox)<br>
<a
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