[Vision2020] Another perspective on free speech

Scott Dredge scooterd408 at hotmail.com
Thu Sep 27 16:35:02 PDT 2012


There is no disputing that it was offensive to some Muslims, but there is no prosecutable crime involved for that (unlike Tom's poor comparison bar scene).  It would also be very difficult to prove that such a movie trailer would foreseeably trigger a riot (again unlike Tom's bar scene which could be foreseen to potentially trigger violence).  I think at best, all the US authorities can do is to look for something / anything else they can prosecute the film maker on by scouring his past and present and see if they can lock him on all unrelated charges that will stick (income tax evasion, unpaid speeding tickets, expired license plate tags, etc.) and try to put him away for the maximum allowable time on those offenses.

-Scott

Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 16:04:24 -0700
From: philosopher.joe at gmail.com
To: godshatter at yahoo.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Another perspective on free speech

Paul, 
You think you can answer that question, whether or not the film incited riots or was just expressing a point of view? Ron's post speaks to issues of cultural differences in regard to these instances. It makes an excellent case (intended or not) that if you knew anything about the people the film was intended to irritate, the probability of riot was high. (I've posted before that I don't think this is reason to legally censor the film but that is a complex issue.)


But my real question is, how can you -- a non-Muslim -- presume to decide whether or not a film that is apparently offensive to most Muslims is offensive enough to incite riots? Unless you are completely arrogant or out of touch with your own humanity, you have to agree that if the majority of Muslims say it is offensive enough to incite riots (and given that riots ensued), then it is offensive enough. I don't see what you and your life experiences could add to this matter.


I and others, at any rate, would be better off listening to Muslims on this matter than to you. 

Joe

On Sep 27, 2012, at 3:25 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:


It's still out there on YouTube, just search for it.  When I get a chance, I'll watch the trailer so I can tell if it's trying to incite riots or just expressing a point of view.


Paul


    
    From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
 To: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> 

Cc: viz <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
 Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012
 3:03 PM
 Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Another perspective on free speech
   
Direct threats to one's life have a way of controlling speech that the law could never hope to achieve. Joe


On Sep 27, 2012, at 2:56 PM, Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> wrote:

Here is a snapshot of the site connected by the "Innocence of Muslims" link . . .

<image.png>
Pop quiz, Mr. Dredge:  Who removed the video?
Hint:  visit the link at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYQgacE2OW0


Seeya at the polls, Moscow, because . . .
"Moscow Cares"http://www.MoscowCares.com  
Tom HansenMoscow, Idaho
"We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students.  The college students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."

- Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007) 
On Sep 27, 2012, at 2:44 PM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com> wrote:









Removed?  Say it ain't so.  So much for the often ballyhooed and yet poorly understood 'freedom of speech'...

I think it's safe to finally say at this point:  'Nuff said'.


From: moscowcares at moscow.com
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 13:53:22 -0700
To: thansen at moscow.com

CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Another perspective on free speech

The video trailer for "Innocence of Muslims" has been removed and is no longer available
 online.
However, I did download it just before I posted the link.  Maybe later I will make copies available off-list and off-line . . . or maybe I'll stash it in my digital archives . . . to be uncovered and reviewed years from now.


Seeya at the polls, Moscow, because . . .
"Moscow Cares"http://www.MoscowCares.com  
Tom HansenMoscow, Idaho
"We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students.  The college students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."

- Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007) 
On Sep 27, 2012, at 1:44 PM, Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> wrote:


>From my posting two weeks ago 
"Innocence of Muslims"http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2012-September/085732.html

Seeya at the polls, Moscow, because . . .
"Moscow Cares"http://www.MoscowCares.com
  Tom HansenMoscow, Idaho
"We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students.  The college students are not very active in
 local elections (thank goodness!)."
- Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007) 
On Sep 27, 2012, at 1:28 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:


Did the trailer for "The Innocence of Muslims" that was posted to YouTube actually incite hatred against racial or religious groups, or did it just express hatred towards racial or religious groups?  There is a difference.  I ask because I haven't seen this YouTube video.


Paul


    
    From: Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com>
 To: philosopher.joe at gmail.com; art.deco.studios at gmail.com 

Cc: viz
 <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
 Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 12:53 PM
 Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Another perspective on free speech

   




What particular section of the article are you not in agreement with?  It seems to me that the main tenet is this paragraph:

'Americans seem curiously unaware that, in many countries, thoughtful, 
modern, secular-minded people don't reject free speech -- they reject 
the claim that it protects The Innocence of Muslims. Under the 
most advanced legal norms in their countries, free speech doesn't 
include the right to incite hatred against racial or religious groups.'

Seems like just a statement of fact to me that Americans seem curiously unaware about how so-called 'free speech' is thought of in many countries (let alone our own).


-Scott


From: philosopher.joe at gmail.com
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 12:00:32 -0700
To: art.deco.studios at gmail.com

CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Another perspective on free speech

I agree
 with this entirely. Joe

On Sep 27, 2012, at 11:53 AM, Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com> wrote:


I do not agree with this perspective of restricting free speech.

Religious dogma and some of the actions they engender
 including torture, war, forced conversion, restriction of freedoms and rights, cliterectomy, etc are extremely harmful to humankind.  Restricting free expression and the use of various rhetorical devices only serves to protect and promulgate these harmful beliefs and actions



In the search for truth and humane values, why should religious beliefs be exempted from analysis, investigation, the the uses of rhetorical devices used to examine and discuss all other kinds of belief?

It is important to note that unlike many other everyday beliefs like gravity there is no agreement on any religious truth out of the multitude of those offered to or forced upon humankind.  Worse yet, there is as of now unlike gravity, measles, etc, no agreed upon method to cull the true from the false and meaningless.



It offended many when Galileo asserted that the earth revolved around the sun, not the converse.  Let the search for truth be open, and if humor, insults, derision, etc can help in that search, so be it.

The same sort of statements above can be made about political dogma also.



w.



On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 1:23 PM, Ron Force <rforce2003 at yahoo.com> wrote:


http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/09/free-speech-and-the-1st-amendment-arent-always-the-same-thing/262894/ 

 Ron Force
Moscow Idaho USA
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art.deco.studios at gmail.com






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