[Vision2020] Another perspective on free speech

Thu Sep 27 16:04:24 PDT 2012

Paul,

You think you can answer that question, whether or not the film incited
riots or was just expressing a point of view? Ron's post speaks to issues
of cultural differences in regard to these instances. It makes an excellent
case (intended or not) that if you knew anything about the people the film
was intended to irritate, the probability of riot was high. (I've posted
before that I don't think this is reason to legally censor the film but
that is a complex issue.)

But my real question is, how can you -- a non-Muslim -- presume to decide
whether or not a film that is apparently offensive to most Muslims is
offensive enough to incite riots? Unless you are completely arrogant or out
of touch with your own humanity, you have to agree that if the majority of
Muslims say it is offensive enough to incite riots (and given that riots
ensued), then it is offensive enough. I don't see what you and your life
experiences could add to this matter.

I and others, at any rate, would be better off listening to Muslims on this
matter than to you.

Joe

On Sep 27, 2012, at 3:25 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:

It's still out there on YouTube, just search for it.  When I get a chance,
I'll watch the trailer so I can tell if it's trying to incite riots or just
expressing a point of view.

Paul

  ------------------------------
*From:* Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
*To:* Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
*Cc:* viz <vision2020 at moscow.com>
*Sent:* Thursday, September 27, 2012 3:03 PM
*Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Another perspective on free speech

Direct threats to one's life have a way of controlling speech that the law
could never hope to achieve. Joe

On Sep 27, 2012, at 2:56 PM, Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> wrote:

Here is a snapshot of the site connected by the "Innocence of Muslims" link
. . .

<image.png>

Pop quiz, Mr. Dredge:  Who removed the video?

Hint:  visit the link at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYQgacE2OW0

Seeya at the polls, Moscow, because . . .

"Moscow Cares"
http://www.MoscowCares.com <http://www.moscowcares.com/>

Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho

"We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students.  The college
students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."

- Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)

On Sep 27, 2012, at 2:44 PM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com> wrote:

 Removed?  Say it ain't so.  So much for the often ballyhooed and yet
poorly understood 'freedom of speech'...

I think it's safe to finally say at this point:  'Nuff said'.

------------------------------
From: moscowcares at moscow.com
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 13:53:22 -0700
To: thansen at moscow.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Another perspective on free speech

The video trailer for "Innocence of Muslims" has been removed and is no
longer available online.

However, I did download it just before I posted the link.  Maybe later I
will make copies available off-list and off-line . . . or maybe I'll stash
it in my digital archives . . . to be uncovered and reviewed years from now.

Seeya at the polls, Moscow, because . . .

"Moscow Cares"
http://www.MoscowCares.com <http://www.moscowcares.com/>

Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho

"We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students.  The college
students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."

- Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)

On Sep 27, 2012, at 1:44 PM, Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> wrote:

>From my posting two weeks ago

"Innocence of Muslims"
http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2012-September/085732.html

Seeya at the polls, Moscow, because . . .

"Moscow Cares"
http://www.MoscowCares.com <http://www.moscowcares.com/>

Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho

"We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students.  The college
students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."

- Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)

On Sep 27, 2012, at 1:28 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:

Did the trailer for "The Innocence of Muslims" that was posted to YouTube
actually incite hatred against racial or religious groups, or did it just
express hatred towards racial or religious groups?  There is a difference.
I ask because I haven't seen this YouTube video.

Paul

  ------------------------------
*From:* Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com>
*To:* philosopher.joe at gmail.com; art.deco.studios at gmail.com
*Cc:* viz <vision2020 at moscow.com>
*Sent:* Thursday, September 27, 2012 12:53 PM
*Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Another perspective on free speech

 What particular section of the article are you not in agreement with?  It
seems to me that the main tenet is this paragraph:

'Americans seem curiously unaware that, in many countries, thoughtful,
modern, secular-minded people don't reject free speech -- they reject the
claim that it protects *The Innocence of Muslims.* Under the most advanced
legal norms in their countries, free speech doesn't include the right to
incite hatred against racial or religious groups.'

Seems like just a statement of fact to me that Americans seem curiously
unaware about how so-called 'free speech' is thought of in many countries
(let alone our own).

-Scott

------------------------------
From: philosopher.joe at gmail.com
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 12:00:32 -0700
To: art.deco.studios at gmail.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Another perspective on free speech

I agree with this entirely. Joe

On Sep 27, 2012, at 11:53 AM, Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com> wrote:

I do not agree with this perspective of restricting free speech.

Religious dogma and some of the actions they engender including torture,
war, forced conversion, restriction of freedoms and rights, cliterectomy,
etc are extremely harmful to humankind.  Restricting free expression and
the use of various rhetorical devices only serves to protect and promulgate
these harmful beliefs and actions

In the search for truth and humane values, why should religious beliefs be
exempted from analysis, investigation, the the uses of rhetorical devices
used to examine and discuss all other kinds of belief?

It is important to note that unlike many other everyday beliefs like
gravity there is no agreement on any religious truth out of the multitude
of those offered to or forced upon humankind.  Worse yet, there is as of
now unlike gravity, measles, etc, no agreed upon method to cull the true
from the false and meaningless.

It offended many when Galileo asserted that the earth revolved around the
sun, not the converse.  Let the search for truth be open, and if humor,
insults, derision, etc can help in that search, so be it.

The same sort of statements above can be made about political dogma also.

w.

On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 1:23 PM, Ron Force <rforce2003 at yahoo.com> wrote:

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/09/free-speech-and-the-1st-amendment-arent-always-the-same-thing/262894/

Ron Force
Moscow Idaho USA

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-- 
Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
art.deco.studios at gmail.com

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