<div dir="auto"><div>Paul, </div><div><br></div><div>You think you can answer that question, whether or not the film incited riots or was just expressing a point of view? Ron's post speaks to issues of cultural differences in regard to these instances. It makes an excellent case (intended or not) that if you knew anything about the people the film was intended to irritate, the probability of riot was high. (I've posted before that I don't think this is reason to legally censor the film but that is a complex issue.)<br>
<br>But my real question is, how can you -- a non-Muslim -- presume to decide whether or not a film that is apparently offensive to most Muslims is offensive enough to incite riots? Unless you are completely arrogant or out of touch with your own humanity, you have to agree that if the majority of Muslims say it is offensive enough to incite riots (and given that riots ensued), then it is offensive enough. I don't see what you and your life experiences could add to this matter.<br>
<br>I and others, at any rate, would be better off listening to Muslims on this matter than to you. <br><br>Joe<br><br>On Sep 27, 2012, at 3:25 PM, Paul Rumelhart <<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br></div><div><span></span></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif">It's still out there on YouTube, just search for it. When I get a chance, I'll watch the trailer so I can tell if it's trying to incite riots or just expressing a point of view.<br>
<br>Paul<br><div><span><br></span></div><div><br></div> <div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt"> <div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt"> <div dir="ltr">
<font face="Arial"> <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b> Joe Campbell <<a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> Tom Hansen <<a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank">thansen@moscow.com</a>> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b> viz <<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>> <br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, September 27, 2012
3:03 PM<br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Vision2020] Another perspective on free speech<br> </font> </div> <br><div><div><div>Direct threats to one's life have a way of controlling speech that the law could never hope to achieve. Joe<br>
<br>On Sep 27, 2012, at 2:56 PM, Tom Hansen <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank">thansen@moscow.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div>Here is a snapshot of the site connected by the "Innocence of Muslims" link . . .</div>
<div><br></div><div><image.png></div><div><br></div><div>Pop quiz, Mr. Dredge: Who removed the video?</div><div><br></div><div>Hint: visit the link at:</div><div><br></div><div><span style="font-size:15px;line-height:19px;white-space:nowrap"><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYQgacE2OW0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYQgacE2OW0</a></span><br>
<br>Seeya at the polls, Moscow, because . . .<div><br></div><div>"Moscow Cares"</div><div><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.moscowcares.com/" target="_blank">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a></div><div> </div><div>
<div>Tom Hansen</div><div>Moscow, Idaho</div><div><br></div><div>"We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students. The college students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."</div>
<div><br></div><div>- Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)</div><div> </div></div></div><div><br>On Sep 27, 2012, at 2:44 PM, Scott Dredge <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com" target="_blank">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">Removed? Say it ain't so. So much for the often ballyhooed and yet poorly understood 'freedom of speech'...<br><br>I think it's safe to finally say at this point: 'Nuff said'.<br>
<br><div><div></div><hr>From: <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:moscowcares@moscow.com" target="_blank">moscowcares@moscow.com</a><br>Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 13:53:22 -0700<br>To: <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank">thansen@moscow.com</a><br>
CC: <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Another perspective on free speech<br><br><div>The video trailer for "Innocence of Muslims" has been removed and is no longer available
online.</div><div><br></div><div>However, I did download it just before I posted the link. Maybe later I will make copies available off-list and off-line . . . or maybe I'll stash it in my digital archives . . . to be uncovered and reviewed years from now.<br>
<br>Seeya at the polls, Moscow, because . . .<div><br></div><div>"Moscow Cares"</div><div><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.moscowcares.com/" target="_blank">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a></div><div> </div><div>
<div>Tom Hansen</div><div>Moscow, Idaho</div><div><br></div><div>"We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students. The college students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."</div>
<div><br></div><div>- Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)</div><div> </div></div></div><div><br>On Sep 27, 2012, at 1:44 PM, Tom Hansen <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank">thansen@moscow.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br></div><blockquote><div><div>From my posting two weeks ago </div><div><br></div><div>"Innocence of Muslims"</div><div><span style="font-size:15px;line-height:19px;white-space:nowrap"><a rel="nofollow" href="http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2012-September/085732.html" target="_blank">http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2012-September/085732.html</a></span></div>
<div><br><span>Seeya at the polls, Moscow, because . . .</span><div><br></div><div>"Moscow Cares"</div><div><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.moscowcares.com/" target="_blank">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a></div>
<div> </div><div><div>Tom Hansen</div><div>Moscow, Idaho</div><div><br></div><div>"We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students. The college students are not very active in
local elections (thank goodness!)."</div><div><br></div><div>- Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)</div><div> </div></div></div><div><br>On Sep 27, 2012, at 1:28 PM, Paul Rumelhart <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br></div><blockquote><div><div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif">Did the trailer for "The Innocence of Muslims" that was posted to YouTube actually incite hatred against racial or religious groups, or did it just express hatred towards racial or religious groups? There is a difference. I ask because I haven't seen this YouTube video.<br>
<br>Paul<br><div><span><br></span></div><div><br></div> <div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt"> <div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt"> <div dir="ltr">
<font face="Arial"> <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b> Scott Dredge <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com" target="_blank">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>; <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" target="_blank">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b> viz
<<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>> <br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, September 27, 2012 12:53 PM<br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Vision2020] Another perspective on free speech<br>
</font> </div> <br><div>
<div><div dir="ltr">
What particular section of the article are you not in agreement with? It seems to me that the main tenet is this paragraph:<br><br>'Americans seem curiously unaware that, in many countries, thoughtful,
modern, secular-minded people don't reject free speech -- they reject
the claim that it protects <i>The Innocence of Muslims.</i> Under the
most advanced legal norms in their countries, free speech doesn't
include the right to incite hatred against racial or religious groups.'<br><br>Seems like just a statement of fact to me that Americans seem curiously unaware about how so-called 'free speech' is thought of in many countries (let alone our own).<br>
<br>-Scott<br><br><br><div><div></div><hr>From: <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a><br>Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 12:00:32 -0700<br>To: <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" target="_blank">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a><br>
CC: <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Another perspective on free speech<br><br><div>I agree
with this entirely. Joe<br><br>On Sep 27, 2012, at 11:53 AM, Art Deco <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" target="_blank">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote><div>
I do not agree with this perspective of restricting free speech.<br><br>Religious dogma and some of the actions they engender
including torture, war, forced conversion, restriction of freedoms and rights, cliterectomy, etc are extremely harmful to humankind. Restricting free expression and the use of various rhetorical devices only serves to protect and promulgate these harmful beliefs and actions<br>
<br>In the search for truth and humane values, why should religious beliefs be exempted from analysis, investigation, the the uses of rhetorical devices used to examine and discuss all other kinds of belief?<br><br>It is important to note that unlike many other everyday beliefs like gravity there is no agreement on any religious truth out of the multitude of those offered to or forced upon humankind. Worse yet, there is as of now unlike gravity, measles, etc, no agreed upon method to cull the true from the false and meaningless.<br>
<br>It offended many when Galileo asserted that the earth revolved around the sun, not the converse. Let the search for truth be open, and if humor, insults, derision, etc can help in that search, so be it.<br><br>The same sort of statements above can be made about political dogma also.<br>
<br>w.<br><br><br><br><div>On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 1:23 PM, Ron Force <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:rforce2003@yahoo.com" target="_blank">rforce2003@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote style="border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><div style="font-size:10pt;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><div><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/09/free-speech-and-the-1st-amendment-arent-always-the-same-thing/262894/" target="_blank">http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/09/free-speech-and-the-1st-amendment-arent-always-the-same-thing/262894/</a> <span><font color="#888888"><span></span></font></span></div>
<span><font color="#888888"><div> </div><div>Ron Force<br>Moscow Idaho USA</div></font></span></div></div><br>=======================================================<br>
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=======================================================<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<br><a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" target="_blank">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a><br>
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