[Vision2020] "Working together" (was "Question, V-Peeps . . .")

keely emerinemix kjajmix1 at msn.com
Sun Mar 25 09:08:15 PDT 2012


Paul, do you really think -- do you really have any evidence that would lead you to conclude -- that Doug Wilson is interested in having people "working with them (his followers) in
    a joint effort to try to remake Moscow into someplace that everyone
    can live with?"  

Really?  Why would you presume, from the evidence, that Wilson gives a good rip about "remaking Moscow into someplace that everyone can live with"?  It's kind of not like that.

Let's see.  He's written a book about how to use "Christian" sarcasm and belligerence to engage with nonbelieves.  He has spurned efforts to join local pastors in inter-faith movement activities that could "remake Moscow."  He has a book out now, "Evangellyfish," that's a satire against the "soul-winning" type of modern churches, both emergent and traditional, that have vexed him for years -- and that constitute the majority of Moscow's Protestant churches.  He is a hyper-Calvinist who believes that God, for God's own "good pleasure," has purposely created some people for the sole purpose of eternal damnation.  He thinks it would be an act of judicious mercy to simply exile, rather than stone or burn, homosexuals in his post-millennial, patriarchal "Christian" era -- the one his theology assures is coming and will be lead by male property owners who are heads of household.  Women can't vote in church matters at Christ Church if, as is virtually always the case, they have a believing, attending husband.   He thinks slavery was an affectionate, secure relationship between Black kidnap victims and the loving, patriarchal Christian masters who bought them. He decries democracy and has acknowledged that it's very likely that he 
and his congregants have prayed for the destruction of public schools. He's certain that he's taught them to pray harm against their enemies, and defends his "Biblical" right to do it.  He's called "Occupy" protesters horseflies and pustules and equated women's ordination with some sort of asexual marine biology.

He's even said "liberal women are ugly," because, as he asserts, they're "unloved," presumably by the homo-loving, feminized, pomosexual sentimentalist men they married.  That's kind of sweet way to extend a hand, isn't it?

Yes, it would be "a much more positive approach," as you say, if we could all work together.  But "working with" Wilson is a little like two people meeting in the Dallas airport.  One's got a ticket to L.A. and the other is heading to New York -- and damned if they can't figure out how to travel together.

That's the way it is, Paul, whether you choose to see it or not.  It really is that simple.

Keely
www.keely-prevailingwinds.com


Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 23:28:57 -0700
From: godshatter at yahoo.com
To: v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Question, V-Peeps . . .



  


    
    
  
  
    On 03/24/2012 10:31 PM, Saundra Lund wrote:
    
      
      
      
      
        In part, Paul wrote:
        “For example, a few years ago people on
          this list were suggesting that we boycott any business run by
          Christ Church members because of some conflict people on this
          list had with Doug.”
         
        What a selective memory you have, Paul!!! 
            Actually, what started the whole boycott thing was Christ
            Church members boycotting local businesses with which they
            disagreed.  That went on for years before there was
            any discussion of personal conscientious spending
            decisions by some as opposed to the organized
            boycotts by Christ Church.  And, that history was rehashed
            for you – you participated in it – so you’re not ignorant of
            the background.
      
    
    

    Well, if I had happened to have been on a public Christ Church
    listserv on which people were discussing the boycott of non-Christ
    Church businesses, I would have argued against it.  Perhaps I would
    have asked for more tolerance there, as well.  Who knows?  As it is,
    I'm not talking to them.  I'm talking to you.

    

    
      
        
         
        Funny that you only remember – and repeat – part
            of the story that fits into your stereotyping while ignoring
            the cause.  Why is that, Paul?
      
    
    

    I suspect it's alien mind-control rays.

    

    
      
        
         
        And, you dislike the “Intolerista” thing.  Take
            it up with Christ Church since they are the ones who decided
            to make up the word & apply it to any who challenged
            them.  And, they are the ones who still apply the label to
            anyone who disagrees with them.  They sell lectures about it
            and write articles about it and preach about it and talk
            about it at their silly conferences here and elsewhere and
            their supporters have it all over their blogs.  It’s a
            regular part of their vocabulary used as a pejorative to
            describe people who challenge their deep-seated desire for
            and stealth attempts at theocracy, pure and simple.
      
    
    

    They coined the term, you all chose to use it as a badge of honor,
    and you're surprised they refer to you by that name?  

    

    
      
        
         
        Finally, I’m weary of repeating it, but we’ll
            give it yet another try for you simply because it offends me
            that you continue to not be honest.  The objection to Christ
            Church isn’t that they choose to worship &
            believe a theological distortion with which we disagree –
            there are more than a couple of local churches that fit into
            that category.
         
        Rather, it’s that they advocate for a theocracy
            in which the law will force all of us to behave in the ways
            they want and punish those who don’t and deny opportunities
            to others.  They want the benefits of being considered a
            church without following the rules required for the benefits
            they demand and abuse.  “Live & let live” isn’t
            something they accept.  They relish being divisive and
            waging a culture war against those of us who don’t
            share their beliefs.  They are intolerant.
      
    
    

    I'm sure that almost every organization would want to remake the
    laws to match how they think the world should work.  Especially
    religious organizations, since many of them have the added
    constraint that they think the Creator of Everything is commanding
    them to do so.  I refuse to believe that the members of Christ
    Church are in any way unique in this.  What do you think it means to
    be tolerant of something, anyway?  If you are only tolerant of views
    that you support, then you aren't really being tolerant at all.

    

    
      
        
         
        It really is that simple, Paul, and I truly don’t
            understand why you refuse to accept that’s the case for
            many/the majority of us who have been labeled “Intoleristas”
            by the Kirk.  Further, it’s offensive that you continue to
            reject explanations contrary your preferred stereotyping
            that you’ve been given time and time again and instead
            repeatedly trot out the trite attacks you know aren’t
            honest.  It’s like you refuse to listen to those you attack
            because it’s doesn’t fit into the picture you want to have. 
            IOW, you have a real bias against those of us who aren’t
            interested in a theocracy, truly believe in and are
              willing to fight for our constitutional guarantee of
            freedom of – and from – religion.
      
    
    

    Instead of fighting for your freedom from their religious rule, as
    if they are an invading force from another reality trying to
    subjugate Moscow by force of arms, why not try working with them in
    a joint effort to try to remake Moscow into someplace that everyone
    can live with?  Wouldn't that be a much more positive approach?  

    

    Paul

    

    
      
        
         
        If you consider that a “sh*tstorm,” so be it.
         
         
        Saundra
        Moscow, ID
         
        The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil
            is for good people to do nothing.
        ~ Edmund Burke
         
         
         
        
          
            From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
                [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of
                Paul Rumelhart

                Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 8:29 PM

                To: Nicholas Gier

                Cc: vision2020

                Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Question, V-Peeps . . .
          
        
         
        

          You know what?  It actually is intolerance.  The Christ Church
          leadership may not be stellar citizens according to your
          criteria, but I see so much ridicule and hatred directed at
          them on this list that I fail to see it as anything other than
          intolerance.  For example, a few years ago people on this list
          were suggesting that we boycott any business run by Christ
          Church members because of some conflict people on this list
          had with Doug.  I don't even remember what it was.  A tolerant
          community would welcome people of all faiths, whether or not
          they thought their leadership were screw-ups.

          

          This isn't directed at you, personally, by the way.  It's just
          something that has bothered me as a long-time Vision2020
          subscriber.  I'm saying this in response to your post because
          I find you to be one of the more rational people on this
          list.  Myself, I hope they manage to build the cathedral of
          their dreams, whatever that might be.  The same goes for any
          other religious group out there.  More power to them.

          

          I just think that a more welcoming approach might be worth a
          try someday.  Every single Christ Church member that I have
          spent more than a few minutes interacting with has turned out
          to be a nice, helpful person.  More so than your average
          person, even.  

          

          I'm not just suggesting that we be more tolerant of them
          because I happen to know a few members of their church.  If
          this was a Muslim group, witches, Satanists (of whatever
          variety), atheists, Scientologists, or any other minority
          religious group, I'd be suggesting the same thing.  Welcome
          them to the community because they are people like we all
          are.  It doesn't have to be any more complicated than that.  

          

          I'm not trying to say that people shouldn't complain about
          whatever it is they think Doug has been up to last, I just
          think that the "Intolerista" thing should be tossed out the
          window, as should the "not on the Palouse, not ever" idea.  If
          it were a group distinguished because of gender, race, or
          sexual preference and people were being proud of their
          intolerance to them, I would expect everyone on this list to
          be rightly offended.  I don't know why people intolerant of a
          religious tradition are being given a pass.

          

          Anyway, rant over.  I'll go prepare myself for the veritable
          shitstorm that I suspect is on it's way.

          

          Paul

          

          On 03/24/2012 01:54 PM, Nicholas Gier wrote: 
        Hail to the Vision! 
        
           
        
        
          I once had an image file of an
            archictect's general plan for the the Kirk's Kirk. (Did
            Wilson know that "kirk" is Afrikaans for the churches of
            racist Dutch Calvinists?)  It looked like a medieval
            cathedral and would take up the entire property.  They
            foolishly assumed that they could use Gritman's parking
            lots, but permission was wisely refused.  Their real estate
            agent tried to buy the large vacant piece to the southwest
            and Gritman refused to sell that as well.
        
        
           
        
        
          It's not intolerant to dislkike
            intellectual dishonesty, ordinary dishonesty, bigotry, and
            bad manners.
        
        
           
        
        
          I therefore sign myself a proud
            Intolerista,
        
        
           
        
        
          Nick 
          
            On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 10:16 AM,
              Bradford Cranmer <bradford.cranmer at gmail.com>
              wrote:
            The name
              of that lot is The Christ Church Eternally Phantom
              Cathedral.
            
              On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 9:08 AM, Tom
                Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
                wrote:
              

                

                Seeya round town, Moscow.

                

                Tom Hansen

                Moscow, Idaho

                

                "If not us, who?

                If not now, when?"

                

                - Unknown

                

                

                

                =======================================================

                 List services made available by First Step Internet,

                 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.

                              http://www.fsr.net

                         mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com

                =======================================================
            
            

              

              =======================================================

               List services made available by First Step Internet,

               serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.

                            http://www.fsr.net

                       mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com

              =======================================================
          
           
        
         
         
        =======================================================
         List services made available by First Step Internet,
         serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
                       http://www.fsr.net
                  mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
        =======================================================
         
      
    
    

  


=======================================================
 List services made available by First Step Internet,
 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
               http://www.fsr.net
          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
======================================================= 		 	   		  
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20120325/95a7188a/attachment-0001.html>


More information about the Vision2020 mailing list