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Paul, do you really think -- do you really have any evidence that would lead you to conclude -- that Doug Wilson is interested in having people "working with them (his followers) in
a joint effort to try to remake Moscow into someplace that everyone
can live with?" <br><br>Really? Why would you presume, from the evidence, that Wilson gives a good rip about "remaking Moscow into someplace that everyone can live with"? It's kind of not like that.<br><br>Let's see. He's written a book about how to use "Christian" sarcasm and belligerence to engage with nonbelieves. He has spurned efforts to join local pastors in inter-faith movement activities that could "remake Moscow." He has a book out now, "Evangellyfish," that's a satire against the "soul-winning" type of modern churches, both emergent and traditional, that have vexed him for years -- and that constitute the majority of Moscow's Protestant churches. He is a hyper-Calvinist who believes that God, for God's own "good pleasure," has purposely created some people for the sole purpose of eternal damnation. He thinks it would be an act of judicious mercy to simply exile, rather than stone or burn, homosexuals in his post-millennial, patriarchal "Christian" era -- the one his theology assures is coming and will be lead by male property owners who are heads of household. Women can't vote in church matters at Christ Church if, as is virtually always the case, they have a believing, attending husband. He thinks slavery was an affectionate, secure relationship between Black kidnap victims and the loving, patriarchal Christian masters who bought them. He decries democracy and has acknowledged that it's very likely that he
and his congregants have prayed for the destruction of public schools. He's certain that he's taught them to pray harm against their enemies, and defends his "Biblical" right to do it. He's called "Occupy" protesters horseflies and pustules and equated women's ordination with some sort of asexual marine biology.<br><br>He's even said "liberal women are ugly," because, as he asserts, they're "unloved," presumably by the homo-loving, feminized, pomosexual sentimentalist men they married. That's kind of sweet way to extend a hand, isn't it?<br><br>Yes, it would be "a much more positive approach," as you say, if we could all work together. But "working with" Wilson is a little like two people meeting in the Dallas airport. One's got a ticket to L.A. and the other is heading to New York -- and damned if they can't figure out how to travel together.<br><br>That's the way it is, Paul, whether you choose to see it or not. It really is that simple.<br><br><font style="" color="#8064a2"><font style="font-size:12pt" size="3"><font style="" face="Verdana">Keely<br>www.keely-prevailingwinds.com<br></font></font></font><br><br><div><div id="SkyDrivePlaceholder"></div><hr id="stopSpelling">Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 23:28:57 -0700<br>From: godshatter@yahoo.com<br>To: v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm<br>CC: vision2020@moscow.com<br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Question, V-Peeps . . .<br><br>
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On 03/24/2012 10:31 PM, Saundra Lund wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:045201cd0a48$969dcee0$c3d96ca0$@ssl1.fastmail.fm">
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,\00000d\00000a 73, 125)">In part, Paul wrote:</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,\00000d\00000a 73, 125)">“</span>For example, a few years ago people on
this list were suggesting that we boycott any business run by
Christ Church members because of some conflict people on this
list had with Doug.”<span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,\00000d\00000a 73, 125)"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,\00000d\00000a 73, 125)"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,\00000d\00000a 73, 125)">What a selective memory you have, Paul!!!
Actually, what started the whole boycott thing was Christ
Church members boycotting local businesses with which they
disagreed. That went on for <b>years</b> before there was
any discussion of <b>personal</b> conscientious spending
decisions by some as opposed to the <b>organized</b>
boycotts by Christ Church. And, that history was rehashed
for you – you participated in it – so you’re not ignorant of
the background.</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Well, if I had happened to have been on a public Christ Church
listserv on which people were discussing the boycott of non-Christ
Church businesses, I would have argued against it. Perhaps I would
have asked for more tolerance there, as well. Who knows? As it is,
I'm not talking to them. I'm talking to you.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:045201cd0a48$969dcee0$c3d96ca0$@ssl1.fastmail.fm">
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,\00000d\00000a 73, 125)"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,\00000d\00000a 73, 125)"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,\00000d\00000a 73, 125)">Funny that you only remember – and repeat – part
of the story that fits into your stereotyping while ignoring
the cause. Why is that, Paul?</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I suspect it's alien mind-control rays.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:045201cd0a48$969dcee0$c3d96ca0$@ssl1.fastmail.fm">
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,\00000d\00000a 73, 125)"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,\00000d\00000a 73, 125)"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,\00000d\00000a 73, 125)">And, you dislike the “Intolerista” thing. Take
it up with Christ Church since they are the ones who decided
to make up the word & apply it to any who challenged
them. And, they are the ones who still apply the label to
anyone who disagrees with them. They sell lectures about it
and write articles about it and preach about it and talk
about it at their silly conferences here and elsewhere and
their supporters have it all over their blogs. It’s a
regular part of their vocabulary used as a pejorative to
describe people who challenge their deep-seated desire for
and stealth attempts at theocracy, pure and simple.</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
They coined the term, you all chose to use it as a badge of honor,
and you're surprised they refer to you by that name? <br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:045201cd0a48$969dcee0$c3d96ca0$@ssl1.fastmail.fm">
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,\00000d\00000a 73, 125)"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,\00000d\00000a 73, 125)"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,\00000d\00000a 73, 125)">Finally, I’m weary of repeating it, but we’ll
give it yet another try for you simply because it offends me
that you continue to not be honest. The objection to Christ
Church <b>isn’t</b> that they choose to worship &
believe a theological distortion with which we disagree –
there are more than a couple of local churches that fit into
that category.</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,\00000d\00000a 73, 125)"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,\00000d\00000a 73, 125)">Rather, it’s that they advocate for a theocracy
in which the law will force all of us to behave in the ways
they want and punish those who don’t and deny opportunities
to others. They want the benefits of being considered a
church without following the rules required for the benefits
they demand and abuse. “Live & let live” isn’t
something they accept. They relish being divisive and
waging a culture war <b>against</b> those of us who don’t
share their beliefs. They are intolerant.</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I'm sure that almost every organization would want to remake the
laws to match how they think the world should work. Especially
religious organizations, since many of them have the added
constraint that they think the Creator of Everything is commanding
them to do so. I refuse to believe that the members of Christ
Church are in any way unique in this. What do you think it means to
be tolerant of something, anyway? If you are only tolerant of views
that you support, then you aren't really being tolerant at all.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:045201cd0a48$969dcee0$c3d96ca0$@ssl1.fastmail.fm">
<div class="ecxWordSection1">
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,\00000d\00000a 73, 125)"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,\00000d\00000a 73, 125)"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,\00000d\00000a 73, 125)">It really is that simple, Paul, and I truly don’t
understand why you refuse to accept that’s the case for
many/the majority of us who have been labeled “Intoleristas”
by the Kirk. Further, it’s offensive that you continue to
reject explanations contrary your preferred stereotyping
that you’ve been given time and time again and instead
repeatedly trot out the trite attacks you know aren’t
honest. It’s like you refuse to listen to those you attack
because it’s doesn’t fit into the picture you want to have.
IOW, you have a real bias against those of us who aren’t
interested in a theocracy, truly believe in <b>and are
willing to fight for</b> our constitutional guarantee of
freedom of – and from – religion.</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Instead of fighting for your freedom from their religious rule, as
if they are an invading force from another reality trying to
subjugate Moscow by force of arms, why not try working with them in
a joint effort to try to remake Moscow into someplace that everyone
can live with? Wouldn't that be a much more positive approach? <br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:045201cd0a48$969dcee0$c3d96ca0$@ssl1.fastmail.fm">
<div class="ecxWordSection1">
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,\00000d\00000a 73, 125)"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,\00000d\00000a 73, 125)"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,\00000d\00000a 73, 125)">If you consider that a “sh*tstorm,” so be it.</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,\00000d\00000a 73, 125)"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,\00000d\00000a 73, 125)"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,\00000d\00000a 73, 125)">Saundra</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,\00000d\00000a 73, 125)">Moscow, ID</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,\00000d\00000a 73, 125)"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,\00000d\00000a 73, 125)">The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil
is for good people to do nothing.</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,\00000d\00000a 73, 125)">~ Edmund Burke</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,\00000d\00000a 73, 125)"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,\00000d\00000a 73, 125)"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,\00000d\00000a 73, 125)"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-right:medium none;border-width:1pt\00000d\00000a medium medium;border-style:solid none none;border-color:rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"> <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com">vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</a>
[<a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com">mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Paul Rumelhart<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, March 24, 2012 8:29 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nicholas Gier<br>
<b>Cc:</b> vision2020<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] Question, V-Peeps . . .</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><br>
You know what? It actually is intolerance. The Christ Church
leadership may not be stellar citizens according to your
criteria, but I see so much ridicule and hatred directed at
them on this list that I fail to see it as anything other than
intolerance. For example, a few years ago people on this list
were suggesting that we boycott any business run by Christ
Church members because of some conflict people on this list
had with Doug. I don't even remember what it was. A tolerant
community would welcome people of all faiths, whether or not
they thought their leadership were screw-ups.<br>
<br>
This isn't directed at you, personally, by the way. It's just
something that has bothered me as a long-time Vision2020
subscriber. I'm saying this in response to your post because
I find you to be one of the more rational people on this
list. Myself, I hope they manage to build the cathedral of
their dreams, whatever that might be. The same goes for any
other religious group out there. More power to them.<br>
<br>
I just think that a more welcoming approach might be worth a
try someday. Every single Christ Church member that I have
spent more than a few minutes interacting with has turned out
to be a nice, helpful person. More so than your average
person, even. <br>
<br>
I'm not just suggesting that we be more tolerant of them
because I happen to know a few members of their church. If
this was a Muslim group, witches, Satanists (of whatever
variety), atheists, Scientologists, or any other minority
religious group, I'd be suggesting the same thing. Welcome
them to the community because they are people like we all
are. It doesn't have to be any more complicated than that. <br>
<br>
I'm not trying to say that people shouldn't complain about
whatever it is they think Doug has been up to last, I just
think that the "Intolerista" thing should be tossed out the
window, as should the "not on the Palouse, not ever" idea. If
it were a group distinguished because of gender, race, or
sexual preference and people were being proud of their
intolerance to them, I would expect everyone on this list to
be rightly offended. I don't know why people intolerant of a
religious tradition are being given a pass.<br>
<br>
Anyway, rant over. I'll go prepare myself for the veritable
shitstorm that I suspect is on it's way.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
On 03/24/2012 01:54 PM, Nicholas Gier wrote: </p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal">Hail to the Vision! </p>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal">I once had an image file of an
archictect's general plan for the the Kirk's Kirk. (Did
Wilson know that "kirk" is Afrikaans for the churches of
racist Dutch Calvinists?) It looked like a medieval
cathedral and would take up the entire property. They
foolishly assumed that they could use Gritman's parking
lots, but permission was wisely refused. Their real estate
agent tried to buy the large vacant piece to the southwest
and Gritman refused to sell that as well.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal">It's not intolerant to dislkike
intellectual dishonesty, ordinary dishonesty, bigotry, and
bad manners.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal">I therefore sign myself a proud
Intolerista,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">Nick </p>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal">On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 10:16 AM,
Bradford Cranmer <<a href="mailto:bradford.cranmer@gmail.com">bradford.cranmer@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">The name
of that lot is The Christ Church Eternally Phantom
Cathedral.</p>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal">On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 9:08 AM, Tom
Hansen <<a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><br>
<br>
Seeya round town, Moscow.<br>
<br>
Tom Hansen<br>
Moscow, Idaho<br>
<br>
"If not us, who?<br>
If not now, when?"<br>
<br>
- Unknown<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><br>
<br>
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serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<pre> </pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre>=======================================================</pre>
<pre> List services made available by First Step Internet,</pre>
<pre> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.</pre>
<pre> <a href="http://www.fsr.net" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a></pre>
<pre> <a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a></pre>
<pre>=======================================================</pre>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
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