[Vision2020] "Working together" (was "Question, V-Peeps . . .")
Paul Rumelhart
godshatter at yahoo.com
Sun Mar 25 11:54:02 PDT 2012
Sure, there's plenty of room for those on both sides of this divide to
work on bridging that gap. No question about it. Is one person's
intolerance adequate reason to be intolerant yourself? I don't think
so, but I seem to be alone in this.
Every Christian religion out there believes that people that don't
accept Christ's sacrifice will endure an eternity of hell. Whether that
involves endless physical torture or simply being without God for
eternity, it's a pretty bleak scenario. Yet I urge non-believers to be
tolerant of Christians, even if they believe these things. You see
where I'm going with this? I simply don't care what outrageous (in my
opinion) things a person believes.
I agree that Doug could find a nicer way of expressing his beliefs at
times. As I say, there is room for more tolerance on both sides.
I disagree that it's impossible to work together, though. My best
friend since Junior High (30+ years) is a member of the extended Christ
Church family. We have discussed everything under the sun throughout
that time. We have to be careful to agree to disagree on a number of
topics, but there is a surprising amount of topics that we can converse
on productively. This often includes many of the big-name items that
cause so much strife on this list. When you actually converse with
someone from Christ Church on these topics, you can often-times see
where they are coming from. You might not agree, but you can see where
they are coming from based on their specific world view. Still, even
though we disagree on a lot, my friend and I still help each other out
when they need it, we still give each other a shoulder to cry on, and we
still celebrate the good things in life. Just like friends everywhere do.
I just hate seeing such a big rift in the community that I have lived
most of my life in.
Paul
On 03/25/2012 09:08 AM, keely emerinemix wrote:
> Paul, do you really think -- do you really have any evidence that
> would lead you to conclude -- that Doug Wilson is interested in having
> people "working with them (his followers) in a joint effort to try to
> remake Moscow into someplace that everyone can live with?"
>
> Really? Why would you presume, from the evidence, that Wilson gives a
> good rip about "remaking Moscow into someplace that everyone can live
> with"? It's kind of not like that.
>
> Let's see. He's written a book about how to use "Christian" sarcasm
> and belligerence to engage with nonbelieves. He has spurned efforts
> to join local pastors in inter-faith movement activities that could
> "remake Moscow." He has a book out now, "Evangellyfish," that's a
> satire against the "soul-winning" type of modern churches, both
> emergent and traditional, that have vexed him for years -- and that
> constitute the majority of Moscow's Protestant churches. He is a
> hyper-Calvinist who believes that God, for God's own "good pleasure,"
> has purposely created some people for the sole purpose of eternal
> damnation. He thinks it would be an act of judicious mercy to simply
> exile, rather than stone or burn, homosexuals in his post-millennial,
> patriarchal "Christian" era -- the one his theology assures is coming
> and will be lead by male property owners who are heads of household.
> Women can't vote in church matters at Christ Church if, as is
> virtually always the case, they have a believing, attending husband.
> He thinks slavery was an affectionate, secure relationship between
> Black kidnap victims and the loving, patriarchal Christian masters who
> bought them. He decries democracy and has acknowledged that it's very
> likely that he and his congregants have prayed for the destruction of
> public schools. He's certain that he's taught them to pray harm
> against their enemies, and defends his "Biblical" right to do it.
> He's called "Occupy" protesters horseflies and pustules and equated
> women's ordination with some sort of asexual marine biology.
>
> He's even said "liberal women are ugly," because, as he asserts,
> they're "unloved," presumably by the homo-loving, feminized,
> pomosexual sentimentalist men they married. That's kind of sweet way
> to extend a hand, isn't it?
>
> Yes, it would be "a much more positive approach," as you say, if we
> could all work together. But "working with" Wilson is a little like
> two people meeting in the Dallas airport. One's got a ticket to L.A.
> and the other is heading to New York -- and damned if they can't
> figure out how to travel together.
>
> That's the way it is, Paul, whether you choose to see it or not. It
> really is that simple.
>
> Keely
> www.keely-prevailingwinds.com
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 23:28:57 -0700
> From: godshatter at yahoo.com
> To: v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm
> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Question, V-Peeps . . .
>
> On 03/24/2012 10:31 PM, Saundra Lund wrote:
>
> In part, Paul wrote:
>
> “For example, a few years ago people on this list were suggesting
> that we boycott any business run by Christ Church members because
> of some conflict people on this list had with Doug.”
>
> What a selective memory you have, Paul!!! Actually, what started
> the whole boycott thing was Christ Church members boycotting local
> businesses with which they disagreed. That went on for *years*
> before there was any discussion of *personal* conscientious
> spending decisions by some as opposed to the *organized* boycotts
> by Christ Church. And, that history was rehashed for you – you
> participated in it – so you’re not ignorant of the background.
>
>
> Well, if I had happened to have been on a public Christ Church
> listserv on which people were discussing the boycott of non-Christ
> Church businesses, I would have argued against it. Perhaps I would
> have asked for more tolerance there, as well. Who knows? As it is,
> I'm not talking to them. I'm talking to you.
>
> Funny that you only remember – and repeat – part of the story that
> fits into your stereotyping while ignoring the cause. Why is
> that, Paul?
>
>
> I suspect it's alien mind-control rays.
>
> And, you dislike the “Intolerista” thing. Take it up with Christ
> Church since they are the ones who decided to make up the word &
> apply it to any who challenged them. And, they are the ones who
> still apply the label to anyone who disagrees with them. They
> sell lectures about it and write articles about it and preach
> about it and talk about it at their silly conferences here and
> elsewhere and their supporters have it all over their blogs. It’s
> a regular part of their vocabulary used as a pejorative to
> describe people who challenge their deep-seated desire for and
> stealth attempts at theocracy, pure and simple.
>
>
> They coined the term, you all chose to use it as a badge of honor, and
> you're surprised they refer to you by that name?
>
> Finally, I’m weary of repeating it, but we’ll give it yet another
> try for you simply because it offends me that you continue to not
> be honest. The objection to Christ Church *isn’t* that they
> choose to worship & believe a theological distortion with which we
> disagree – there are more than a couple of local churches that fit
> into that category.
>
> Rather, it’s that they advocate for a theocracy in which the law
> will force all of us to behave in the ways they want and punish
> those who don’t and deny opportunities to others. They want the
> benefits of being considered a church without following the rules
> required for the benefits they demand and abuse. “Live & let
> live” isn’t something they accept. They relish being divisive and
> waging a culture war *against* those of us who don’t share their
> beliefs. They are intolerant.
>
>
> I'm sure that almost every organization would want to remake the laws
> to match how they think the world should work. Especially religious
> organizations, since many of them have the added constraint that they
> think the Creator of Everything is commanding them to do so. I refuse
> to believe that the members of Christ Church are in any way unique in
> this. What do you think it means to be tolerant of something,
> anyway? If you are only tolerant of views that you support, then you
> aren't really being tolerant at all.
>
> It really is that simple, Paul, and I truly don’t understand why
> you refuse to accept that’s the case for many/the majority of us
> who have been labeled “Intoleristas” by the Kirk. Further, it’s
> offensive that you continue to reject explanations contrary your
> preferred stereotyping that you’ve been given time and time again
> and instead repeatedly trot out the trite attacks you know aren’t
> honest. It’s like you refuse to listen to those you attack
> because it’s doesn’t fit into the picture you want to have. IOW,
> you have a real bias against those of us who aren’t interested in
> a theocracy, truly believe in *and are willing to fight for* our
> constitutional guarantee of freedom of – and from – religion.
>
>
> Instead of fighting for your freedom from their religious rule, as if
> they are an invading force from another reality trying to subjugate
> Moscow by force of arms, why not try working with them in a joint
> effort to try to remake Moscow into someplace that everyone can live
> with? Wouldn't that be a much more positive approach?
>
> Paul
>
> If you consider that a “sh*tstorm,” so be it.
>
> Saundra
>
> Moscow, ID
>
> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good
> people to do nothing.
>
> ~ Edmund Burke
>
> *From:*vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
> <mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com>
> [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] *On Behalf Of *Paul Rumelhart
> *Sent:* Saturday, March 24, 2012 8:29 PM
> *To:* Nicholas Gier
> *Cc:* vision2020
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Question, V-Peeps . . .
>
>
> You know what? It actually is intolerance. The Christ Church
> leadership may not be stellar citizens according to your criteria,
> but I see so much ridicule and hatred directed at them on this
> list that I fail to see it as anything other than intolerance.
> For example, a few years ago people on this list were suggesting
> that we boycott any business run by Christ Church members because
> of some conflict people on this list had with Doug. I don't even
> remember what it was. A tolerant community would welcome people
> of all faiths, whether or not they thought their leadership were
> screw-ups.
>
> This isn't directed at you, personally, by the way. It's just
> something that has bothered me as a long-time Vision2020
> subscriber. I'm saying this in response to your post because I
> find you to be one of the more rational people on this list.
> Myself, I hope they manage to build the cathedral of their dreams,
> whatever that might be. The same goes for any other religious
> group out there. More power to them.
>
> I just think that a more welcoming approach might be worth a try
> someday. Every single Christ Church member that I have spent more
> than a few minutes interacting with has turned out to be a nice,
> helpful person. More so than your average person, even.
>
> I'm not just suggesting that we be more tolerant of them because I
> happen to know a few members of their church. If this was a
> Muslim group, witches, Satanists (of whatever variety), atheists,
> Scientologists, or any other minority religious group, I'd be
> suggesting the same thing. Welcome them to the community because
> they are people like we all are. It doesn't have to be any more
> complicated than that.
>
> I'm not trying to say that people shouldn't complain about
> whatever it is they think Doug has been up to last, I just think
> that the "Intolerista" thing should be tossed out the window, as
> should the "not on the Palouse, not ever" idea. If it were a
> group distinguished because of gender, race, or sexual preference
> and people were being proud of their intolerance to them, I would
> expect everyone on this list to be rightly offended. I don't know
> why people intolerant of a religious tradition are being given a pass.
>
> Anyway, rant over. I'll go prepare myself for the veritable
> shitstorm that I suspect is on it's way.
>
> Paul
>
> On 03/24/2012 01:54 PM, Nicholas Gier wrote:
>
> Hail to the Vision!
>
> I once had an image file of an archictect's general plan for the
> the Kirk's Kirk. (Did Wilson know that "kirk" is Afrikaans for the
> churches of racist Dutch Calvinists?) It looked like a medieval
> cathedral and would take up the entire property. They foolishly
> assumed that they could use Gritman's parking lots, but permission
> was wisely refused. Their real estate agent tried to buy the
> large vacant piece to the southwest and Gritman refused to sell
> that as well.
>
> It's not intolerant to dislkike intellectual dishonesty, ordinary
> dishonesty, bigotry, and bad manners.
>
> I therefore sign myself a proud Intolerista,
>
> Nick
>
> On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 10:16 AM, Bradford Cranmer
> <bradford.cranmer at gmail.com <mailto:bradford.cranmer at gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
> The name of that lot is The Christ Church Eternally Phantom Cathedral.
>
> On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 9:08 AM, Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com
> <mailto:thansen at moscow.com>> wrote:
>
>
>
> Seeya round town, Moscow.
>
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
>
> "If not us, who?
> If not now, when?"
>
> - Unknown
>
>
>
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