[Vision2020] Question, V-Peeps . . .

Paul Rumelhart godshatter at yahoo.com
Sat Mar 24 23:28:57 PDT 2012 

On 03/24/2012 10:31 PM, Saundra Lund wrote:
>
> In part, Paul wrote:
>
> "For example, a few years ago people on this list were suggesting that 
> we boycott any business run by Christ Church members because of some 
> conflict people on this list had with Doug."
>
> What a selective memory you have, Paul!!!  Actually, what started the 
> whole boycott thing was Christ Church members boycotting local 
> businesses with which they disagreed.  That went on for *years* before 
> there was any discussion of *personal* conscientious spending 
> decisions by some as opposed to the *organized* boycotts by Christ 
> Church.  And, that history was rehashed for you -- you participated in 
> it -- so you're not ignorant of the background.
>

Well, if I had happened to have been on a public Christ Church listserv 
on which people were discussing the boycott of non-Christ Church 
businesses, I would have argued against it.  Perhaps I would have asked 
for more tolerance there, as well.  Who knows?  As it is, I'm not 
talking to them.  I'm talking to you.

> Funny that you only remember -- and repeat -- part of the story that 
> fits into your stereotyping while ignoring the cause.  Why is that, Paul?
>

I suspect it's alien mind-control rays.

> And, you dislike the "Intolerista" thing.  Take it up with Christ 
> Church since they are the ones who decided to make up the word & apply 
> it to any who challenged them.  And, they are the ones who still apply 
> the label to anyone who disagrees with them.  They sell lectures about 
> it and write articles about it and preach about it and talk about it 
> at their silly conferences here and elsewhere and their supporters 
> have it all over their blogs.  It's a regular part of their vocabulary 
> used as a pejorative to describe people who challenge their 
> deep-seated desire for and stealth attempts at theocracy, pure and simple.
>

They coined the term, you all chose to use it as a badge of honor, and 
you're surprised they refer to you by that name?

> Finally, I'm weary of repeating it, but we'll give it yet another try 
> for you simply because it offends me that you continue to not be 
> honest.  The objection to Christ Church *isn't* that they choose to 
> worship & believe a theological distortion with which we disagree -- 
> there are more than a couple of local churches that fit into that 
> category.
>
> Rather, it's that they advocate for a theocracy in which the law will 
> force all of us to behave in the ways they want and punish those who 
> don't and deny opportunities to others.  They want the benefits of 
> being considered a church without following the rules required for the 
> benefits they demand and abuse.  "Live & let live" isn't something 
> they accept.  They relish being divisive and waging a culture war 
> *against* those of us who don't share their beliefs.  They are intolerant.
>

I'm sure that almost every organization would want to remake the laws to 
match how they think the world should work.  Especially religious 
organizations, since many of them have the added constraint that they 
think the Creator of Everything is commanding them to do so.  I refuse 
to believe that the members of Christ Church are in any way unique in 
this.  What do you think it means to be tolerant of something, anyway?  
If you are only tolerant of views that you support, then you aren't 
really being tolerant at all.

> It really is that simple, Paul, and I truly don't understand why you 
> refuse to accept that's the case for many/the majority of us who have 
> been labeled "Intoleristas" by the Kirk.  Further, it's offensive that 
> you continue to reject explanations contrary your preferred 
> stereotyping that you've been given time and time again and instead 
> repeatedly trot out the trite attacks you know aren't honest.  It's 
> like you refuse to listen to those you attack because it's doesn't fit 
> into the picture you want to have.  IOW, you have a real bias against 
> those of us who aren't interested in a theocracy, truly believe in 
> *and are willing to fight for* our constitutional guarantee of freedom 
> of -- and from -- religion.
>

Instead of fighting for your freedom from their religious rule, as if 
they are an invading force from another reality trying to subjugate 
Moscow by force of arms, why not try working with them in a joint effort 
to try to remake Moscow into someplace that everyone can live with?  
Wouldn't that be a much more positive approach?

Paul

> If you consider that a "sh*tstorm," so be it.
>
> Saundra
>
> Moscow, ID
>
> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to 
> do nothing.
>
> ~ Edmund Burke
>
> *From:*vision2020-bounces at moscow.com 
> [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] *On Behalf Of *Paul Rumelhart
> *Sent:* Saturday, March 24, 2012 8:29 PM
> *To:* Nicholas Gier
> *Cc:* vision2020
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Question, V-Peeps . . .
>
>
> You know what?  It actually is intolerance.  The Christ Church 
> leadership may not be stellar citizens according to your criteria, but 
> I see so much ridicule and hatred directed at them on this list that I 
> fail to see it as anything other than intolerance.  For example, a few 
> years ago people on this list were suggesting that we boycott any 
> business run by Christ Church members because of some conflict people 
> on this list had with Doug.  I don't even remember what it was.  A 
> tolerant community would welcome people of all faiths, whether or not 
> they thought their leadership were screw-ups.
>
> This isn't directed at you, personally, by the way.  It's just 
> something that has bothered me as a long-time Vision2020 subscriber.  
> I'm saying this in response to your post because I find you to be one 
> of the more rational people on this list.  Myself, I hope they manage 
> to build the cathedral of their dreams, whatever that might be.  The 
> same goes for any other religious group out there.  More power to them.
>
> I just think that a more welcoming approach might be worth a try 
> someday.  Every single Christ Church member that I have spent more 
> than a few minutes interacting with has turned out to be a nice, 
> helpful person.  More so than your average person, even.
>
> I'm not just suggesting that we be more tolerant of them because I 
> happen to know a few members of their church.  If this was a Muslim 
> group, witches, Satanists (of whatever variety), atheists, 
> Scientologists, or any other minority religious group, I'd be 
> suggesting the same thing.  Welcome them to the community because they 
> are people like we all are.  It doesn't have to be any more 
> complicated than that.
>
> I'm not trying to say that people shouldn't complain about whatever it 
> is they think Doug has been up to last, I just think that the 
> "Intolerista" thing should be tossed out the window, as should the 
> "not on the Palouse, not ever" idea.  If it were a group distinguished 
> because of gender, race, or sexual preference and people were being 
> proud of their intolerance to them, I would expect everyone on this 
> list to be rightly offended.  I don't know why people intolerant of a 
> religious tradition are being given a pass.
>
> Anyway, rant over.  I'll go prepare myself for the veritable shitstorm 
> that I suspect is on it's way.
>
> Paul
>
> On 03/24/2012 01:54 PM, Nicholas Gier wrote:
>
> Hail to the Vision!
>
> I once had an image file of an archictect's general plan for the the 
> Kirk's Kirk. (Did Wilson know that "kirk" is Afrikaans for the 
> churches of racist Dutch Calvinists?)  It looked like a medieval 
> cathedral and would take up the entire property.  They foolishly 
> assumed that they could use Gritman's parking lots, but permission was 
> wisely refused.  Their real estate agent tried to buy the large vacant 
> piece to the southwest and Gritman refused to sell that as well.
>
> It's not intolerant to dislkike intellectual dishonesty, ordinary 
> dishonesty, bigotry, and bad manners.
>
> I therefore sign myself a proud Intolerista,
>
> Nick
>
> On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 10:16 AM, Bradford Cranmer 
> <bradford.cranmer at gmail.com <mailto:bradford.cranmer at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> The name of that lot is The Christ Church Eternally Phantom Cathedral.
>
> On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 9:08 AM, Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com 
> <mailto:thansen at moscow.com>> wrote:
>
>
>
> Seeya round town, Moscow.
>
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
>
> "If not us, who?
> If not now, when?"
>
> - Unknown
>
>
>
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>   
>   
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