[Vision2020] WTF?

Dave tiedye at turbonet.com
Fri Mar 9 18:54:40 PST 2012


I have always thought that the Columbia Gorge would be ideal location 
for pumped-hydroelectric systems (much more efficient then current water 
separation techniques BTW).  Especially when I see all those turbines 
inactive in a strong wind.

But, I don't expect it, it would just make too much sense!

Dave


On 03/08/2012 11:10 AM, Paul Rumelhart wrote:
> I don't know much about using electrolysis as energy storage, the ones 
> I've seen associated with wind have always been water-based storage 
> (i.e. pump water uphill into a reservoir and run it through pipes to 
> spin turbines or whatever to get the energy back).  I agree large 
> capacity storage is desperately needed.  Instead of letting the 
> windmills stand unmoving, store their energy somewhere until the grid 
> needs it.  From what I've seen, there is a lot of work that needs to 
> be done in this area.  We should have lots of energy storage 
> throughout the grid so that the load fluctuations are evened out.  We 
> need higher capacity and more efficient energy storage solutions to be 
> developed, and we need to get even rudimentary ones deployed first 
> before we open the floodgates and put up thousands of variable-load 
> energy generation devices.  We also need a grid smart enough to send 
> the energy where it's needed by the shortest path from the nearest 
> energy storage system.
>
> I think rushing headlong into alternative energy solutions without 
> this system in place first is foolish.
>
> Paul
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>
> *To:* vision2020 at moscow.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 8, 2012 10:36 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] WTF?
>
> Large capacity storage:  That is why electrolysis of water using the 
> wind power is a possible solution.  It takes into account the 
> variablilty of wind and solar power and provides a means of storage 
> and regeneration when the power is needed.  This isn't my idea.  The 
> idea was around from the late 1960s.
>
> w.
>
> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com 
> <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
>     Ultimately, the problem with wind power is that it's not a
>     constant load solution.  We need some kind of energy storage
>     solution that is cost-effective, efficient, and high capacity. 
>     Then we can use wind and solar to recharge the energy storage
>     system and be buffered from the vagaries of wind speed and cloud
>     cover.  Without that, we end up with a lot of our windmills not
>     moving and our solar panels not receiving enough sunlight some of
>     the time and falling short at others.  We also need a smarter
>     electrical grid that can handle the fluctuations better and be
>     smart enough to route energy to these energy storage systems when
>     needed.  If the government wants to spend money on renewable
>     energy, I would say spend it on electrical grid upgrades and
>     large-capacity energy storage first.  Or nuclear, which actually
>     *is* a base-load solution.
>
>     Paul
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     *From:* Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com
>     <mailto:art.deco.studios at gmail.com>>
>     *To:* vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>     *Sent:* Thursday, March 8, 2012 8:04 AM
>     *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] WTF?
>
>     Thank you.
>
>     It is a complex subject. But does it make sense to pay for power
>     not produced when water can be left through the dams free?
>
>     Those of us with $200 - $300 per month electricity bills fail to
>     believe the cheapness argument.
>
>     w.
>
>     On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 10:03 PM, Ron Force <rforce2003 at yahoo.com
>     <mailto:rforce2003 at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
>         I think it's something like this:
>         Wind power is currently not price competitive with hydro-power
>         or natural gas without state laws that require "green energy"
>         and tax breaks. The cost of the machinery to electrolyze
>         water, store the hydrogen, and turn it back into electricity
>         would add to the already non-competitive cost of wind power.
>
>         The Whistling Ridge project, just approved by Gregoire over
>         the objections of conservationists, is on hold by the
>         developers for economic reasons-- the price of electricity is
>         so low they can't make it pencil out.
>         Ron Force
>         Moscow Idaho USA
>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>         *From:* Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com
>         <mailto:art.deco.studios at gmail.com>>
>         *To:* vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>         *Sent:* Wednesday, March 7, 2012 6:03 PM
>         *Subject:* [Vision2020] WTF?
>
>         Why not use the excess power to electrolyze water into
>         hydrogen and oxygen, store these gases, then use them to
>         generate electricity when the demand is greater?
>
>
>         http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/03/07/wind-power-companies-paid-to-not-produce/?test=latestnews
>
>         -- 
>         Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
>         art.deco.studios at gmail.com <mailto:art.deco.studios at gmail.com>
>
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>
>     -- 
>     Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
>     art.deco.studios at gmail.com <mailto:art.deco.studios at gmail.com>
>
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>     serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
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>
>
>
> -- 
> Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
> art.deco.studios at gmail.com <mailto:art.deco.studios at gmail.com>
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
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