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I have always thought that the Columbia Gorge would be ideal
location for pumped-hydroelectric systems (much more efficient then
current water separation techniques BTW). Especially when I see all
those turbines inactive in a strong wind. <br>
<br>
But, I don't expect it, it would just make too much sense!<br>
<br>
Dave<br>
<br>
<br>
On 03/08/2012 11:10 AM, Paul Rumelhart wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:1331233841.21467.YahooMailNeo@web120502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
<div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:times
new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">
<div><span>I don't know much about using electrolysis as energy
storage, the ones I've seen associated with wind have always
been water-based storage (i.e. pump water uphill into a
reservoir and run it through pipes to spin turbines or
whatever to get the energy back). I agree large capacity
storage is desperately needed. Instead of letting the
windmills stand unmoving, store their energy somewhere until
the grid needs it. From what I've seen, there is a lot of
work that needs to be done in this area. We should have
lots of energy storage throughout the grid so that the load
fluctuations are evened out. We need higher capacity and
more efficient energy storage solutions to be developed, and
we need to get even rudimentary ones deployed first before
we open the floodgates and put up thousands of variable-load
energy generation devices. We also need a grid smart enough
to send the energy where it's needed by the shortest path
from the nearest energy storage system.</span></div>
<div><br>
<span></span></div>
<div><span>I think rushing headlong into alternative energy
solutions without this system in place first is foolish.<br>
</span></div>
<div><br>
<span></span></div>
<div><span>Paul<br>
</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial" size="2">
<hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b>
Art Deco <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com"><art.deco.studios@gmail.com></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Thursday, March 8, 2012 10:36 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [Vision2020] WTF?<br>
</font> </div>
<br>
<meta http-equiv="x-dns-prefetch-control" content="off">
<div id="yiv601304587">Large capacity storage: That is why
electrolysis of water using the wind power is a possible
solution. It takes into account the variablilty of wind
and solar power and provides a means of storage and
regeneration when the power is needed. This isn't my
idea. The idea was around from the late 1960s.<br>
<br>
w. <br>
<br>
<div class="yiv601304587gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 8, 2012
at 9:33 AM, Paul Rumelhart <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com"
target="_blank" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="yiv601304587gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div>
<div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:times new
roman, new york, times, serif;">
<div><span>Ultimately, the problem with wind power
is that it's not a constant load solution. We
need some kind of energy storage solution that
is cost-effective, efficient, and high
capacity. Then we can use wind and solar to
recharge the energy storage system and be
buffered from the vagaries of wind speed and
cloud cover. Without that, we end up with a
lot of our windmills not moving and our solar
panels not receiving enough sunlight some of
the time and falling short at others. We also
need a smarter electrical grid that can handle
the fluctuations better and be smart enough to
route energy to these energy storage systems
when needed. If the government wants to spend
money on renewable energy, I would say spend
it on electrical grid upgrades and
large-capacity energy storage first. Or
nuclear, which actually *is* a base-load
solution.</span></div>
<div><br>
<span></span></div>
<div><span>Paul<br>
</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:times new roman, new york,
times, serif;font-size:12pt;">
<div style="font-family:times new roman, new
york, times, serif;font-size:12pt;">
<div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial">
<div class="yiv601304587im">
<hr size="1"> <b><span
style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b>
Art Deco <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"
target="_blank"
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>
<br>
</div>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Thursday, March 8, 2012 8:04 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [Vision2020] WTF?<br>
</font> </div>
<div>
<div class="yiv601304587h5"> <br>
<div>Thank you.<br>
<br>
It is a complex subject. But does it
make sense to pay for power not produced
when water can be left through the dams
free?<br>
<br>
Those of us with $200 - $300 per month
electricity bills fail to believe the
cheapness argument.<br>
<br>
w.<br>
<br>
<div>On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 10:03 PM,
Ron Force <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:rforce2003@yahoo.com"
target="_blank"
href="mailto:rforce2003@yahoo.com">rforce2003@yahoo.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div>
<div
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:times
new roman, new york, times,
serif;">
<div><span>I think it's
something like this:</span></div>
<div><span>Wind power is
currently not price
competitive with hydro-power
or natural gas without state
laws that require "green
energy" and tax breaks. The
cost of the machinery to
electrolyze water, store the
hydrogen, and turn it back
into electricity would add
to the already
non-competitive cost of wind
power.</span></div>
<div><span><br>
</span></div>
<div><span>The Whistling Ridge
project, just approved by
Gregoire over the objections
of conservationists, is on
hold by the developers for
economic reasons-- the price
of electricity is so low
they can't make it pencil
out.</span></div>
<div> </div>
<div>Ron Force<br>
Moscow Idaho USA<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:times
new roman, new york, times,
serif;font-size:12pt;">
<div style="font-family:times
new roman, new york, times,
serif;font-size:12pt;">
<div dir="ltr"> <font
face="Arial">
<hr size="1"> <b><span
style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Art Deco <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"
target="_blank"
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>
<br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Wednesday, March 7, 2012
6:03 PM<br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b>
[Vision2020] WTF?<br>
</font> </div>
<div>
<div> <br>
<div>Why not use the
excess power to
electrolyze water into
hydrogen and oxygen,
store these gases,
then use them to
generate electricity
when the demand is
greater?<br>
<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/03/07/wind-power-companies-paid-to-not-produce/?test=latestnews">http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/03/07/wind-power-companies-paid-to-not-produce/?test=latestnews</a><br
clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
Art Deco (Wayne A.
Fox)<br>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Windows, OSX, or Linux is the same choice as:
McDonald's, Burger King, or a (real) Co-Op.
</pre>
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