[Vision2020] hard to imagine

Tue Jan 17 18:12:02 PST 2012

This reminds me that I wanted to start a discussion about the left/right 
liberal/conservative metric.

This is a good case of where this metric doesn't always hold.  I was 
reading some comments about this on a website I frequent, and one metric 
that was suggested was an authoritarian/libertarian metric.  These terms 
have their own baggage, so let me describe what I mean.  Authoritarian 
in this case would mean a goal of centralizing more functions and 
growing the Federal government.  Libertarian in this case would mean 
decentralizing government and decreasing the size of the Federal Government.

Tea Partiers would presumably fall in the libertarian camp, thus they 
could be Libertarian Republicans or Libertarian Democrats.  This would 
mean that we shouldn't be shocked that a few of them are, in fact, 
Democrats.

I don't know if the two axis' are orthogonal or not.

Note that it's in the best interest of those in positions of power to 
promote authoritarianism.  I think if we did an analysis, we'd find that 
most incumbents are authoritarian, even if they talk about smaller 
government.

I fall into the libertarian camp, as defined above, more or less.  Some 
things should be centralized, or at least coordinated centrally, but 
many of them should be left to the individual States, or dropped altogether.

I see it as those who want to be protected and those who want to live 
with fewer restrictions, even if dangerously.  Me, I'd rather die on my 
feet than live on my knees.

What do you guys think?

Paul

On 01/17/2012 02:11 PM, Ron Force wrote:
> Hard to imagine Tea Partiers crossing over since polls have found 
> they're just the conservative Republican base with another name:
>
> July 2, 2010
>
>
>   Tea Party Supporters Overlap Republican Base
>
>
>     Eight out of 10 Tea Party supporters are Republicans
>
> by Frank Newport
> PRINCETON, NJ -- There is significant overlap between Americans who 
> identify as supporters of the Tea Party movement and those who 
> identify as conservative Republicans. Their similar ideological makeup 
> and views suggest that the Tea Party movement is more a rebranding of 
> core Republicanism than a new or distinct entity on the American 
> political scene...
> http://www.gallup.com/poll/141098/tea-party-supporters-overlap-republican-base.aspx
> Ron Force
> Moscow Idaho USA
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Jay Borden <jborden at datawedge.com>
> *To:* Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* vision2020 at moscow.com
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 17, 2012 10:52 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] hard to imagine
>
> Well… it amazes me how my posts are either too simple and straight 
> forward… or too long for you to give your attention to.
> I was just pointing out that based on what I saw, this wasn’t some 
> sort of a landslide in process, or that “the times they are ‘a 
> changin” (to loosely quote the end of Keely’s post)… if you look at 
> the web site that was referenced, (not just the web site that WROTE 
> about it), it turns out it’s just one or two folks that put up a few 
> blog posts.
> If you want to use the same concept as a definition of “extreme”, then 
> it’s worth noting the domains “hippiesforgingrich.com 
> <http://hippiesforgingrich.com>” and “99percentersforromney.com 
> <http://99percentersforromney.com>” are still up for grabs. 
>  Statistically, based upon the fact that NO ONE has put up a web site 
> with these topics, these points of view could be considered even more 
> extreme.
> I have posted before that having an extreme viewpoint is relative to 
> your position.  If you’re an Obama supporter, then anything to the 
> right is extreme.  If you’re a Ron Paul supporter, then anything to 
> the left is extreme.
> If you’re a [true] moderate, then anything on both ends is extreme.
> If you want to find middle ground, then BOTH ends of the bell-curve 
> have to agree to meet in the middle.  Anything less, and you’ve got 
> what we have now.
> Jay
> *From:*Joe Campbell [mailto:philosopher.joe at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 17, 2012 6:10 AM
> *To:* Jay Borden
> *Cc:* keely emerinemix; vision2020 at moscow.com
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] hard to imagine
> The fact below is not telling of the extreme nature of the Tea Party, 
> Jay? Likely there would be more participants on a Jews for Hitler 
> blog. It amazes me that you make this remark as if it were something 
> to be proud of. I fear for the well being of our country given this 
> level of divisiveness. How can we reach the kind of political 
> compromise that will allow us to work together and actually solve our 
> problems? This is not a rhetorical question; I'm genuinely anxious to 
> know what you think. How do we find the middle ground given the 
> political climate?
> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 10:03 PM, Jay Borden <jborden at datawedge.com 
> <mailto:jborden at datawedge.com>> wrote:
> Well... the “teapartyforObama.com <http://teapartyforObama.com>” web 
> site has a total of 5 [blog?] posts from a total of 2 people… since 
> July 4^th of last year.
> So… I wouldn’t exactly call this a stampede.
> Jay
> *From:*vision2020-bounces at moscow.com 
> <mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com> 
> [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com 
> <mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com>] *On Behalf Of *keely emerinemix
> *Sent:* Monday, January 16, 2012 9:23 PM
> *To:* vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
> *Subject:* [Vision2020] hard to imagine
> You know, I'd love it if this were true, or if it represented a truly 
> significant shift in voter thinking -- it may well be legitimate, but 
> no less unbelievable:
>
> http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/01/16/the-tea-party-for-obama/
>
> Yep.  Some self-identified Tea Party activists -- "self identified" 
> probably because their Tea Party brethren wouldn't welcome them into 
> the fold -- evidently have seen the light.
>
> Perhaps this is ultimate proof that even those you'd expect to embrace 
> one of the GOP presidential candidates are becoming aware that not a 
> one of them, now that Huntsman is out, deserves their support, much 
> less even five more minutes in the spotlight.  Still, I think 
> "gobsmacked" describes what I felt after seeing this.
>
> Well, Bob Dylan had it right.  The times, they are a'changin' . . .
>
> Keely
> www.keely-prevailingwinds.com <http://www.keely-prevailingwinds.com>
>
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