[Vision2020] Bill Moore - First Step Internet

Paul Rumelhart godshatter at yahoo.com
Wed Nov 30 17:51:57 PST 2011


I'm not competent to judge whether or not this constitutes slander, but 
I will say that certain people get beat up on this list far too often 
for my tastes.  A warning that slander is a possibility is a good 
warning for us to have on this list, in my opinion.  Each one of us, 
myself included, could treat others with a little more respect even if 
they disagree with us politically or rub us the wrong way or represent 
to us all that is evil in the world.

I don't, however, think it's First Step's responsibility to police us.  
We are all posting messages that we know are accessible world-wide, it's 
our responsibility to make sure that we follow the applicable laws when 
doing so.

Paul

On 11/30/2011 04:35 PM, ML394 wrote:
> Here's a good one:
> http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2011-May/076264.html
>
> It's loaded with gossip, nothing much substantiated here.
>
> Gossip when done face to face is one thing, but done on the internet 
> and leaving a permanent mark against a person's reputation is internet 
> slander.
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, November 30, 2011 at 5:24 PM, Paul Rumelhart 
> <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>     Can you point me to an example of slander being sent to the Viz?
>
>     Paul
>
>
>
>     ________________________________
>     From: ML394 <ml394 at hushmail.com>
>     To: Darrell Keim <keim153 at gmail.com>; vision2020 at moscow.com
>     Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 4:13 PM
>     Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Moore - First Step Internet
>
>
>     Darrell:
>
>     This is a very good, thoughtful response, but it is not accurate:
>     Most online bulletin boards, Google groups and online forums do
>     not promote posts which slander real people.
>
>     Here's the distinction: If someone on this forum says, "ML394 is a
>     criminal," then that's not slander.  But if someone says, "BILL
>     MOORE is a thief," that is actually slander.  And the hosting
>     company which promotes that slander become liable in a court of
>     law for the content of its posts.
>
>     If a hosting company makes its forum posts private, however, then
>     it is not legally responsible for slanderous content.
>
>     Again, look it up.
>
>
>
>     On Wednesday, November 30, 2011 at 5:06 PM, Darrell Keim
>     <keim153 at gmail.com> wrote:
>     I've been familiar with 21st century privacy (or, more
>     specifically the
>     >lack thereof) for some time, ML394. My snarky response was because
>     I find
>     >it quite ridiculous that anyone would be upset that remarks made on a
>     >public board might be read by-gasp!-the public.
>     >
>     >UI see no need for 1st Step to change how V2020 works. Anyone making a
>     >judgement solely off what is written here would be extremely foolish.
>     >
>     >I don't think 1st Step has anything to fear RE slander. There are
>     untold
>     >public bulletin boards, etc. where nasty comments are made on a daily
>     >basis. If there was money to be made sueing them, I'm sure lawyers
>     would
>     >be doing so. Capitalism is highly efficient in that regard!
>     >
>     >Anyone who wants to look up what I have written on a public forum
>     is free
>     >to do so. That is why I attach my name to my musings.
>     >
>     >Glad to see you remember my name from the Chamber. Your memory is
>     >excellent, as I left them some time ago. In fact they are looking for
>     >another director, again, even as you read this.
>     >
>     >On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 3:48 PM, ML394 <ml394 at hushmail.com> wrote:
>     >
>     >> Darrell:
>     >>
>     >> I'm glad that you're getting educated about 21st century
>     privacy. And I
>     >> meant it when I said that I heard First Step Internet is going
>     out of
>     >> business. A lawsuit for slander could put any small company like
>     First
>     >> Step Internet out of business.
>     >>
>     >> Also, I didn't know that the Moscow Chamber of Commerce hires
>     snarky staff
>     >> members like yourself. But that's good for business, right? But
>     when the
>     >> Moscow chamber is promoting our town, a quick search through the
>     2020 posts
>     >> can find out what you have to say, how sarcastic you are to
>     others. "When
>     >> did 7th graders take over the chamber of commerce?" will be the big
>     >> question businesses ask when they decide on taking their
>     business elsewhere.
>     >>
>     >> Good job, darrell.
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> On Wednesday, November 30, 2011 at 4:28 PM, Darrell Keim <
>     >> keim153 at gmail.com> wrote:
>     >>
>     >> Ya mean to say that people can read the things I writ and are
>     written 'bout
>     >> me on a public board!?!
>     >>
>     >> Well, shucks. I am mighty glad you took this courageous
>     anonymous stand,
>     >> ML394!
>     >>
>     >> *Shame* on First Step for providing us with a valuable free
>     service, and
>     >> not doing it how y'all think is *proper.*
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> It is good of you to eddycate us po' innocent rubes about the
>     danger of
>     >> postings on the internut.
>     >>
>     >> And you were so clever by starting with your own fake post about
>     First Step
>     >> to make your point!
>     >>
>     >> I sure hope your occupation turns out as well as the others!
>     >> On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 3:11 PM, ML394 <ml394 at hushmail.com> wrote:
>     >>
>     >> > My name is John Q. Public. My name is the name of anyone who
>     gets talked
>     >> > about on this forum and has their reputation smeared on the search
>     >> > engines. My name is your name, Tom. My name is OCCUPY VISION
>     2020, taking
>     >> > a stand against First Step Internet for promoting slanderous
>     comments on
>     >> > the internet and taking no responsibility for the harm that
>     does to real
>     >> > people.
>     >> >
>     >> > The truth is that corporations like First Step Internet need
>     to be held
>     >> > accountable for their actions and the use of its online
>     technology to
>     >> allow
>     >> > anonymous smears of real people.
>     >> >
>     >> > The Vision 2020 policy of having all posts tracked by search
>     engines
>     >> needs
>     >> > to be changed. First Step Internet can make sure that no
>     search engines
>     >> > track the forum posts. Why do people on the internet need to
>     have access
>     >> > to the local posts on the forum? That's not freedom, it is
>     slander with
>     >> > technology.
>     >> >
>     >> > Change the policy. Freedom of speech within the forum is fine,
>     but having
>     >> > the freedom to slander others across the internet should not
>     be allowed
>     >> by
>     >> > First Step Internet. All First Step has to do is simply make
>     the forum's
>     >> > posts untrackable by search engines. Nothing else on the forum
>     would
>     >> > change.
>     >> >
>     >> >
>     >> > On Wednesday, November 30, 2011 at 3:21 PM, Tom Hansen <
>     >> thansen at moscow.com>
>     >> > wrote:
>     >> >
>     >> > And your name is . . . ?
>     >> >
>     >> > Seeya round town, Moscow.
>     >> >
>     >> > Tom Hansen
>     >> > Moscow, Idaho
>     >> >
>     >> > "If not us, who?
>     >> > If not now, when?"
>     >> >
>     >> > - Unknown
>     >> >
>     >> > On Nov 30, 2011, at 2:16 PM, "ML394" <ml394 at hushmail.com> wrote:
>     >> >
>     >> > > What I heard about First Step Internet is this:
>     >> > >
>     >> > > Due to the way the forum posts are being tracked by Google
>     these days,
>     >> > anyone can come on this forum and claim to be a person who
>     they are not.
>     >> > Anyone can say anything about someone else (even slander them)
>     and those
>     >> > posts will be tracked by Google and connected to the name of the
>     >> slandered
>     >> > person.
>     >> > >
>     >> > > In fact, most of the email addresses used to post to this
>     forum could
>     >> > never be tracked or traced to the name on the forum post.
>     There is no
>     >> easy
>     >> > way to prove that any of the forum members are who they claim
>     to be.
>     >> > >
>     >> > > So, if someone were to claim on this forum to be BILL MOORE,
>     who loves
>     >> > to steal money, commit crimes and wants others to share in his
>     life of
>     >> > self-debasement, there would be no way to prove that BILL
>     MOORE did not
>     >> > author the post. And yet the slander remains online. And we
>     all know that
>     >> > Bill Moore of First Step Internet is hardly a degenerate. He
>     is one of
>     >> the
>     >> > most upstanding people in the area, a man who stands for
>     freedom of
>     >> speech
>     >> > and the freedom to slander people, too.
>     >> > >
>     >> > > First Step Internet assumes no liability for the posts on
>     this forum,
>     >> > but according to the Electronic Frontier Foundation hosting a
>     forum which
>     >> > enables members to slander people by name and not just by
>     their screen
>     >> name
>     >> > creates a legal liability for the hosting company. In this
>     case, First
>     >> Step
>     >> > Internet is legally responsible for actually promoting the
>     Vision 2020
>     >> > forum on Google and other search engines. First Step Internet
>     is legally
>     >> > responsible for the slander its members write about others.
>     >> > >
>     >> > > The way I look at it, the longer First Step Internet lets
>     Google track
>     >> > the slanderous comments that have been made on the forum the
>     greater the
>     >> > liability. And First Step Internet would be out of business
>     quickly.
>     >> > >
>     >> > > While I appreciate how important First Step Internet has
>     been in the
>     >> > development of government-funded, rural internet access and the
>     >> development
>     >> > of Vision 2020, I am certain that First Step Internet would be
>     better off
>     >> > (from a legal standpoint) making Vision 2020 a private forum that
>     >> promotes
>     >> > free speech but does not allow search engines to track the
>     content of its
>     >> > posts.
>     >> > > =======================================================
>     >> > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
>     >> > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>     >> > > http://www.fsr.net
>     >> > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>     >> > > =======================================================
>     >> >
>     >> >
>     >> > =======================================================
>     >> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
>     >> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>     >> > http://www.fsr.net
>     >> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>     >> > =======================================================
>     >> >
>     >>
>     >>
>     =======================================================
>     List services made available by First Step Internet,
>     serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>     http://www.fsr.net
>               mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>     =======================================================
>

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