[Vision2020] Godwin's Rule
Warren Hayman
whayman at roadrunner.com
Fri May 13 13:45:57 PDT 2011
It sounds like now would be a good time for a game of Calvin ball.
Warren Hayman
----- Original Message -----
From: Joe Campbell
To: Andreas Schou
Cc: Vision 2020
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Godwin's Rule
Exactly! Which brings us to:
Campbell's Rule: Who ever uses Godwin's Rule must be a Nazi!
(Rules get a lot easier to establish once you leave logic behind!)
On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 11:27 AM, Andreas Schou <ophite at gmail.com> wrote:
Wayne --
You know who tried to ban use of Godwin's Rule?
Hitler.
-- ACS
On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 12:11 PM, Art Deco <deco at moscow.com> wrote:
> I hope we can quell the fallacious use of the so-called Godwin's Rule by
> showing why it is a fallacy. [Although previous attempts at rational
> argument with the individuals invoking the rule have been basically futile.]
>
> Godwin's Rule states: "Whoever invokes the Nazis first loses the argument."
>
> Godwin's Rule basically says it is fallacious to compare anything of less
> than horrendous consequences (if that) to the Nazis.
>
> Wrong.
>
> When A is compared to B, that means there is at least one property P in
> which A and B are similar. For example: Rotten apples are like rotten
> eggs. The similar property between rotten apples and rotten eggs is that
> both can be used to throw at corrupt politicians.
>
> One property that the Nazi regime had was making unilateral decisions from
> the highest level without consultation or discussion with those whom the
> decisions adversely impacted. That property is shared by Governor Otter in
> the megaload issue. Hence, the reference to Nazis would be
> correctly applied.
>
> Comparison arguments are generally wrong when there is no property P in
> which the compared objects share or are similar. There may be other
> problems with particular comparison arguments, but if the comparison
> property is shared or similar, that is not the problem.
>
> Like many others on this forum, I find that some of those who continually
> boast and trumpet themselves as advocates of free expression use Godwin like
> tactics to attempt to quell meaningful discussion and dissent.
>
> I again recommend the short, sweet, but hugely informative book Logic by
> Wesley Salmon to those who are logically impaired. It can be downloaded in
> parts from the web.
>
>
> Let me repeat: Nazis are not the problem we are facing:
>
> Big money/oil secretly makes a deal with Governor Otter, who then dictates
> the terms of the deal to the sheep at the IDT on matters where there are two
> major areas of great public impact and concern and where the secret deal
> prevented serious discussion and consideration:
>
> 1. Impacts of this secret deal on citizens adversely impacted by the
> decision in many, many ways.
>
> 2. Impacts of enabling a project with huge adverse impacts, some of them
> fatal, on many people, the environment, and the U.S. economy given the
> majority interests in the tar sands projects held by China, no friend of the
> environment, public health, or of the sense of fairness in international
> trade, patent, or currency regulations.
>
> ....
>
> I again express my disappointment [and disgust] at Moscow public officials
> not having the knowledge, insight into their own powers, and the guts to
> oppose this charade, not only because of the two areas of concern expressed
> above, but also because of the public policy considerations of allowing
> citizens to be the roadkill of a secret steamrolling secret deal about which
> they were prevented from participating in an open, meaningful discussion and
> debate over matters of serious importance to them. So much for the party of
> freedom and respect for the individual.
>
> Adding: if conversations with people I meet while in Moscow are any
> indication, my disappointment and disgust are widely shared.
>
> Wayne A. Fox
> 1009 Karen Lane
> PO Box 9421
> Moscow, ID 83843
>
> waf at moscow.com
> 208 882-7975
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joe Campbell
> To: Paul Rumelhart
> Cc: Vision 2020
> Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 10:31 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow
> Give me a break. Does the interweb "make the rules"? No. The rules began
> with Aristotle and the Stoics and they were perfected by folks like Boole
> and Frege. As Wayne clearly noted, reference to the rule -- which was made
> by you, Paul, not the interweb -- is itself a fallacy and an attempt to draw
> folks away from the issues. Use of Godwin's Law to condemn an argument or
> point is no better or worse than calling someone a Nazi in the first place
> -- unless the person is in fact a Nazi!
>
> I now return you to the real issue, as summarized by Wayne above ...
>
> On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 9:44 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> I don't make the rules. Take it up with teh interwebs if you think it's
>> stupid.
>> I'm not really trying to win any sort of debate here, myself. Just trying
>> to impart a little perspective. Use at your own risk. That's why Godwin's
>> Law is remarkably effective, actually. It's a good indicator that
>> rationality has left the building and that further debate is only useful for
>> the lulz.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
>> To: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
>> Cc: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>; Saundra Lund
>> <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>; Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 9:31 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow
>>
>> I made this point but Paul is not listening. There was no comparison.
>>
>> The claim that "the first person in an argument who compares the other
>> side to the Nazis loses the debate" is just stupid. Why not just make the
>> winner the person with the best haircut? The person with the worst argument
>> loses the debate.
>>
>> On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 8:17 AM, Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> wrote:
>>
>> Let me get one thing straight to Mr. Rumelhart and to the rest of you
>> lacking any sense of comprehension.
>>
>> My reference to Nazis was NOT aimed at Wayne Krauss.
>>
>> My comment, word for word, . . .
>>
>> "Excusing Krauss because the megaloads weren't anywhere near US95 or
>> Moscow yet is like justifying the Nazis as long as they knock on somebody
>> else's door."
>>
>> The comparison I clearly drew was between "megaloads weren't anywhere near
>> US95 or Moscow" and Nazis knocking "on somebody else's door."
>>
>> If you really do feel like dragging this dead horse around with you, how
>> about taking to your buddies at teh sandbox, ok?
>>
>> 'Nuff said.
>>
>> Now, if you will excuse me, I have four hours of Moscow Megaload Meeting
>> videos to edit and post.
>>
>> Tom Hansen
>> Moscow, Idaho
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, May 13, 2011 7:34 am, Paul Rumelhart wrote:
>> >
>> > Believe me, I'm no fan of Newt Gingrich. All I need to know about him
>> > is that he pressed his first wife for divorce while she was in the
>> > hospital recovering from cancer-related surgery, not to mention
>> > committing adultery while criticizing Clinton for doing the same thing
>> > during the Monica Lewinski scandal.
>> >
>> > Anyway, the idea is that the first person in an argument who compares
>> > the other side to the Nazis loses the debate.
>> >
>> > Paul
>> >
>> > On 05/13/2011 12:00 AM, Saundra Lund wrote:
>> >> Huh -- I wasn't familiar with that term.
>> >>
>> >> Since you cited the Wikipedia article ("has been invoked for the
>> >> inappropriate use of Nazi analogies in articles or speeches"), then do
>> >> you agree that hyperbolic "Godwin's law" (which you obviously accept
>> >> since you called it) is far more appropriately applied to Nasty Newt
>> >> Gingrich than to Tom Hansen& to Ted Moffett (in his "Saint Augustine:
>> >> "Hypocrisy is the tribute that vice pays to virtue" response)?
>> >>
>> >> Just wonderin'. . .
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Saundra Lund
>> >> Moscow, ID
>> >>
>> >> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to
>> >> do nothing.
>> >> ~ Edmund Burke
>> >>
>> >> ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2011 through life
>> >> plus 70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or
>> >> reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express written
>> >> permission of the author.*****
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Paul Rumelhart [mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com]
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 6:34 PM
>> >> To: Tom Hansen
>> >> Cc: Saundra Lund; 'Vision 2020'; 'Donovan Arnold'
>> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Wow, you've just Godwin'd this thread by comparing this issue to the
>> >> Nazis. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law
>> >>
>> >> I'm not looking forward to having to wait an hour for these guys to
>> >> move
>> >> a semi-megaload down the highway, but let's try to keep some
>> >> perspective
>> >> here. We're talking traffic delays, possible road damage, possible
>> >> electricity outages, and one giant megacorp putting a little more money
>> >> in their giant coffers than they otherwise would. Besides, if we "win",
>> >> they'll just find a more expensive way of moving these things and force
>> >> the extra cost on to the consumers.
>> >>
>> >> I'm not saying you're not fighting the good fight, let's just keep it
>> >> in
>> >> perspective.
>> >>
>> >> Paul
>> >>
>> >> On 05/11/2011 11:02 AM, Tom Hansen wrote:
>> >>> Excusing Krauss because the megaloads weren't anywhere near US95 or
>> >>> Moscow yet is like justifying the Nazis as long as they knock on
>> >>> somebody else's door.
>> >>
>> >> <snip>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> > =======================================================
>> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> > http://www.fsr.net
>> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > =======================================================
>> >
>>
>>
>> "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to
>> changeand the Realist adjusts his sails."
>>
>> - Unknown
>>
>>
>> =======================================================
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>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> http://www.fsr.net
>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> =======================================================
>>
>>
>>
>
> ________________________________
>
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> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
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> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
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