[Vision2020] Godwin's Rule
Joe Campbell
philosopher.joe at gmail.com
Fri May 13 20:48:15 PDT 2011
Good idea! I win!
On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 1:45 PM, Warren Hayman <whayman at roadrunner.com>wrote:
> It sounds like now would be a good time for a game of Calvin ball.
>
> Warren Hayman
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
> *To:* Andreas Schou <ophite at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, May 13, 2011 12:01 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Godwin's Rule
>
> Exactly! Which brings us to:
>
> Campbell's Rule: Who ever uses Godwin's Rule must be a Nazi!
>
> (Rules get a lot easier to establish once you leave logic behind!)
>
> On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 11:27 AM, Andreas Schou <ophite at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Wayne --
>>
>> You know who tried to ban use of Godwin's Rule?
>>
>> Hitler.
>>
>> -- ACS
>>
>> On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 12:11 PM, Art Deco <deco at moscow.com> wrote:
>> > I hope we can quell the fallacious use of the so-called Godwin's Rule by
>> > showing why it is a fallacy. [Although previous attempts at rational
>> > argument with the individuals invoking the rule have been basically
>> futile.]
>> >
>> > Godwin's Rule states: "Whoever invokes the Nazis first loses the
>> argument."
>> >
>> > Godwin's Rule basically says it is fallacious to compare anything of
>> less
>> > than horrendous consequences (if that) to the Nazis.
>> >
>> > Wrong.
>> >
>> > When A is compared to B, that means there is at least one property P in
>> > which A and B are similar. For example: Rotten apples are like rotten
>> > eggs. The similar property between rotten apples and rotten eggs is
>> that
>> > both can be used to throw at corrupt politicians.
>> >
>> > One property that the Nazi regime had was making unilateral decisions
>> from
>> > the highest level without consultation or discussion with those whom the
>> > decisions adversely impacted. That property is shared by Governor Otter
>> in
>> > the megaload issue. Hence, the reference to Nazis would be
>> > correctly applied.
>> >
>> > Comparison arguments are generally wrong when there is no property P in
>> > which the compared objects share or are similar. There may be other
>> > problems with particular comparison arguments, but if the comparison
>> > property is shared or similar, that is not the problem.
>> >
>> > Like many others on this forum, I find that some of those who
>> continually
>> > boast and trumpet themselves as advocates of free expression use Godwin
>> like
>> > tactics to attempt to quell meaningful discussion and dissent.
>> >
>> > I again recommend the short, sweet, but hugely informative book Logic by
>> > Wesley Salmon to those who are logically impaired. It can be downloaded
>> in
>> > parts from the web.
>> >
>> >
>> > Let me repeat: Nazis are not the problem we are facing:
>> >
>> > Big money/oil secretly makes a deal with Governor Otter, who then
>> dictates
>> > the terms of the deal to the sheep at the IDT on matters where there are
>> two
>> > major areas of great public impact and concern and where the secret deal
>> > prevented serious discussion and consideration:
>> >
>> > 1. Impacts of this secret deal on citizens adversely impacted by the
>> > decision in many, many ways.
>> >
>> > 2. Impacts of enabling a project with huge adverse impacts, some of
>> them
>> > fatal, on many people, the environment, and the U.S. economy given the
>> > majority interests in the tar sands projects held by China, no friend of
>> the
>> > environment, public health, or of the sense of fairness in international
>> > trade, patent, or currency regulations.
>> >
>> > ....
>> >
>> > I again express my disappointment [and disgust] at Moscow public
>> officials
>> > not having the knowledge, insight into their own powers, and the guts to
>> > oppose this charade, not only because of the two areas of concern
>> expressed
>> > above, but also because of the public policy considerations of allowing
>> > citizens to be the roadkill of a secret steamrolling secret deal about
>> which
>> > they were prevented from participating in an open, meaningful discussion
>> and
>> > debate over matters of serious importance to them. So much for the
>> party of
>> > freedom and respect for the individual.
>> >
>> > Adding: if conversations with people I meet while in Moscow are any
>> > indication, my disappointment and disgust are widely shared.
>> >
>> > Wayne A. Fox
>> > 1009 Karen Lane
>> > PO Box 9421
>> > Moscow, ID 83843
>> >
>> > waf at moscow.com
>> > 208 882-7975 <208%20882-7975>
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: Joe Campbell
>> > To: Paul Rumelhart
>> > Cc: Vision 2020
>> > Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 10:31 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow
>> > Give me a break. Does the interweb "make the rules"? No. The rules began
>> > with Aristotle and the Stoics and they were perfected by folks like
>> Boole
>> > and Frege. As Wayne clearly noted, reference to the rule -- which was
>> made
>> > by you, Paul, not the interweb -- is itself a fallacy and an attempt to
>> draw
>> > folks away from the issues. Use of Godwin's Law to condemn an argument
>> or
>> > point is no better or worse than calling someone a Nazi in the first
>> place
>> > -- unless the person is in fact a Nazi!
>> >
>> > I now return you to the real issue, as summarized by Wayne above ...
>> >
>> > On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 9:44 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I don't make the rules. Take it up with teh interwebs if you think
>> it's
>> >> stupid.
>> >> I'm not really trying to win any sort of debate here, myself. Just
>> trying
>> >> to impart a little perspective. Use at your own risk. That's why
>> Godwin's
>> >> Law is remarkably effective, actually. It's a good indicator that
>> >> rationality has left the building and that further debate is only
>> useful for
>> >> the lulz.
>> >>
>> >> Paul
>> >>
>> >> ________________________________
>> >> From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
>> >> To: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
>> >> Cc: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>; Saundra Lund
>> >> <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>; Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> >> Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 9:31 AM
>> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow
>> >>
>> >> I made this point but Paul is not listening. There was no comparison.
>> >>
>> >> The claim that "the first person in an argument who compares the other
>> >> side to the Nazis loses the debate" is just stupid. Why not just make
>> the
>> >> winner the person with the best haircut? The person with the worst
>> argument
>> >> loses the debate.
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 8:17 AM, Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Let me get one thing straight to Mr. Rumelhart and to the rest of you
>> >> lacking any sense of comprehension.
>> >>
>> >> My reference to Nazis was NOT aimed at Wayne Krauss.
>> >>
>> >> My comment, word for word, . . .
>> >>
>> >> "Excusing Krauss because the megaloads weren't anywhere near US95 or
>> >> Moscow yet is like justifying the Nazis as long as they knock on
>> somebody
>> >> else's door."
>> >>
>> >> The comparison I clearly drew was between "megaloads weren't anywhere
>> near
>> >> US95 or Moscow" and Nazis knocking "on somebody else's door."
>> >>
>> >> If you really do feel like dragging this dead horse around with you,
>> how
>> >> about taking to your buddies at teh sandbox, ok?
>> >>
>> >> 'Nuff said.
>> >>
>> >> Now, if you will excuse me, I have four hours of Moscow Megaload
>> Meeting
>> >> videos to edit and post.
>> >>
>> >> Tom Hansen
>> >> Moscow, Idaho
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, May 13, 2011 7:34 am, Paul Rumelhart wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Believe me, I'm no fan of Newt Gingrich. All I need to know about
>> him
>> >> > is that he pressed his first wife for divorce while she was in the
>> >> > hospital recovering from cancer-related surgery, not to mention
>> >> > committing adultery while criticizing Clinton for doing the same
>> thing
>> >> > during the Monica Lewinski scandal.
>> >> >
>> >> > Anyway, the idea is that the first person in an argument who compares
>> >> > the other side to the Nazis loses the debate.
>> >> >
>> >> > Paul
>> >> >
>> >> > On 05/13/2011 12:00 AM, Saundra Lund wrote:
>> >> >> Huh -- I wasn't familiar with that term.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Since you cited the Wikipedia article ("has been invoked for the
>> >> >> inappropriate use of Nazi analogies in articles or speeches"), then
>> do
>> >> >> you agree that hyperbolic "Godwin's law" (which you obviously accept
>> >> >> since you called it) is far more appropriately applied to Nasty Newt
>> >> >> Gingrich than to Tom Hansen& to Ted Moffett (in his "Saint
>> Augustine:
>> >> >> "Hypocrisy is the tribute that vice pays to virtue" response)?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Just wonderin'. . .
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Saundra Lund
>> >> >> Moscow, ID
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people
>> to
>> >> >> do nothing.
>> >> >> ~ Edmund Burke
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2011 through
>> life
>> >> >> plus 70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or
>> >> >> reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express written
>> >> >> permission of the author.*****
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> >> From: Paul Rumelhart [mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com]
>> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 6:34 PM
>> >> >> To: Tom Hansen
>> >> >> Cc: Saundra Lund; 'Vision 2020'; 'Donovan Arnold'
>> >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Wow, you've just Godwin'd this thread by comparing this issue to the
>> >> >> Nazis. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I'm not looking forward to having to wait an hour for these guys to
>> >> >> move
>> >> >> a semi-megaload down the highway, but let's try to keep some
>> >> >> perspective
>> >> >> here. We're talking traffic delays, possible road damage, possible
>> >> >> electricity outages, and one giant megacorp putting a little more
>> money
>> >> >> in their giant coffers than they otherwise would. Besides, if we
>> "win",
>> >> >> they'll just find a more expensive way of moving these things and
>> force
>> >> >> the extra cost on to the consumers.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I'm not saying you're not fighting the good fight, let's just keep
>> it
>> >> >> in
>> >> >> perspective.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Paul
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On 05/11/2011 11:02 AM, Tom Hansen wrote:
>> >> >>> Excusing Krauss because the megaloads weren't anywhere near US95 or
>> >> >>> Moscow yet is like justifying the Nazis as long as they knock on
>> >> >>> somebody else's door.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> <snip>
>>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > =======================================================
>> >> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> >> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> >> > http://www.fsr.net
>> >> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >> > =======================================================
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to
>> >> changeand the Realist adjusts his sails."
>> >>
>> >> - Unknown
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> =======================================================
>> >> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> >> http://www.fsr.net
>> >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >> =======================================================
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> > ________________________________
>>
>> >
>> > =======================================================
>> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> > http://www.fsr.net
>> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > =======================================================
>> >
>> > =======================================================
>> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> > http://www.fsr.net
>> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > =======================================================
>> >
>>
>> =======================================================
>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> http://www.fsr.net
>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> =======================================================
>>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20110513/8319983e/attachment-0001.html
More information about the Vision2020
mailing list