Good idea! I win!<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 1:45 PM, Warren Hayman <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:whayman@roadrunner.com">whayman@roadrunner.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div>It sounds like now would be a good time for a game of Calvin ball.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Warren Hayman</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote style="border-left:#000000 2px solid;padding-left:5px;padding-right:0px;margin-left:5px;margin-right:0px"><div class="im">
<div style="font:10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="font:10pt arial;background:#e4e4e4"><b>From:</b>
<a title="philosopher.joe@gmail.com" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">Joe
Campbell</a> </div>
<div style="font:10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="ophite@gmail.com" href="mailto:ophite@gmail.com" target="_blank">Andreas Schou</a> </div>
<div style="font:10pt arial"><b>Cc:</b> <a title="vision2020@moscow.com" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">Vision 2020</a> </div>
<div style="font:10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 13, 2011 12:01 PM</div>
<div style="font:10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] Godwin's
Rule</div>
<div><br></div></div>Exactly! Which brings us to:<br><br>Campbell's Rule: Who ever
uses Godwin's Rule must be a Nazi!<br><br>(Rules get a lot easier to establish
once you leave logic behind!)<br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 11:27 AM, Andreas Schou <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ophite@gmail.com" target="_blank">ophite@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left:#ccc 1px solid;margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">Wayne --<br><br>You know who tried to ban use of Godwin's
Rule?<br><br>Hitler.<br><br>-- ACS<br>
<div>
<div></div>
<div><br>On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 12:11 PM, Art Deco <<a href="mailto:deco@moscow.com" target="_blank">deco@moscow.com</a>> wrote:<br>> I hope
we can quell the fallacious use of the so-called Godwin's Rule by<br>>
showing why it is a fallacy. [Although previous attempts at
rational<br>> argument with the individuals invoking the rule have been
basically futile.]<br>><br>> Godwin's Rule states: "Whoever invokes
the Nazis first loses the argument."<br>><br>> Godwin's Rule basically
says it is fallacious to compare anything of less<br>> than horrendous
consequences (if that) to the Nazis.<br>><br>> Wrong.<br>><br>>
When A is compared to B, that means there is at least one property P
in<br>> which A and B are similar. For example: Rotten apples
are like rotten<br>> eggs. The similar property between rotten
apples and rotten eggs is that<br>> both can be used
to throw at corrupt politicians.<br>><br>> One property that the
Nazi regime had was making unilateral decisions from<br>> the
highest level without consultation or discussion with those whom the<br>>
decisions adversely impacted. That property is shared by Governor
Otter in<br>> the megaload issue. Hence, the reference to
Nazis would be<br>> correctly applied.<br>><br>>
Comparison arguments are generally wrong when there is no property P
in<br>> which the compared objects share or are similar. There may
be other<br>> problems with particular comparison arguments, but if the
comparison<br>> property is shared or similar, that is not the
problem.<br>><br>> Like many others on this forum, I find that some of
those who continually<br>> boast and trumpet themselves as advocates of
free expression use Godwin like<br>> tactics to attempt to quell
meaningful discussion and dissent.<br>><br>> I again recommend the
short, sweet, but hugely informative book Logic by<br>> Wesley Salmon to
those who are logically impaired. It can be downloaded in<br>>
parts from the web.<br>><br>><br>> Let me repeat: Nazis are
not the problem we are facing:<br>><br>> Big money/oil secretly makes
a deal with Governor Otter, who then dictates<br>> the terms of the deal
to the sheep at the IDT on matters where there are two<br>> major areas
of great public impact and concern and where the secret deal<br>>
prevented serious discussion and consideration:<br>><br>>
1. Impacts of this secret deal on citizens adversely
impacted by the<br>> decision in many, many ways.<br>><br>>
2. Impacts of enabling a project with huge adverse
impacts, some of them<br>> fatal, on many people, the environment,
and the U.S. economy given the<br>> majority interests in the tar sands
projects held by China, no friend of the<br>> environment, public health,
or of the sense of fairness in international<br>> trade, patent, or
currency regulations.<br>><br>> ....<br>><br>> I again express
my disappointment [and disgust] at Moscow public officials<br>> not
having the knowledge, insight into their own powers, and the guts to<br>>
oppose this charade, not only because of the two areas of concern
expressed<br>> above, but also because of the public policy
considerations of allowing<br>> citizens to be the roadkill of a
secret steamrolling secret deal about which<br>> they were prevented from
participating in an open, meaningful discussion and<br>> debate over
matters of serious importance to them. So much for the party
of<br>> freedom and respect for the individual.<br>><br>> Adding:
if conversations with people I meet while in Moscow are any<br>>
indication, my disappointment and disgust are widely shared.<br>><br>>
Wayne A. Fox<br>> 1009 Karen Lane<br>> PO Box 9421<br>> Moscow,
ID 83843<br>><br>> <a href="mailto:waf@moscow.com" target="_blank">waf@moscow.com</a><br>> <a href="tel:208%20882-7975" value="+12088827975" target="_blank">208
882-7975</a><br>><br>><br>> ----- Original Message -----<br>>
From: Joe Campbell<br>> To: Paul Rumelhart<br>> Cc: Vision
2020<br>> Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 10:31 AM<br>> Subject: Re:
[Vision2020] Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow<br>> Give me a
break. Does the interweb "make the rules"? No. The rules began<br>> with
Aristotle and the Stoics and they were perfected by folks like Boole<br>>
and Frege. As Wayne clearly noted, reference to the rule -- which was
made<br>> by you, Paul, not the interweb -- is itself a fallacy and an
attempt to draw<br>> folks away from the issues. Use of Godwin's Law to
condemn an argument or<br>> point is no better or worse than calling
someone a Nazi in the first place<br>> -- unless the person is in fact a
Nazi!<br>><br>> I now return you to the real issue, as summarized by
Wayne above ...<br>><br>> On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 9:44 AM, Paul
Rumelhart <<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>><br>>
wrote:<br>>><br>>> I don't make the rules. Take it up with
teh interwebs if you think it's<br>>> stupid.<br>>> I'm not
really trying to win any sort of debate here, myself. Just
trying<br>>> to impart a little perspective. Use at your own
risk. That's why Godwin's<br>>> Law is remarkably effective,
actually. It's a good indicator that<br>>> rationality has left
the building and that further debate is only useful for<br>>> the
lulz.<br>>><br>>> Paul<br>>><br>>>
________________________________<br>>> From: Joe Campbell <<a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>><br>>>
To: Tom Hansen <<a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank">thansen@moscow.com</a>><br>>> Cc:
Paul Rumelhart <<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>>; Saundra
Lund<br>>> <<a href="mailto:v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm" target="_blank">v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm</a>>; Vision
2020 <<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>><br>>>
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 9:31 AM<br>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow<br>>><br>>> I made this
point but Paul is not listening. There was no
comparison.<br>>><br>>> The claim that "the first person in an
argument who compares the other<br>>> side to the Nazis loses the
debate" is just stupid. Why not just make the<br>>> winner the person
with the best haircut? The person with the worst argument<br>>> loses
the debate.<br>>><br>>> On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 8:17 AM, Tom
Hansen <<a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank">thansen@moscow.com</a>>
wrote:<br>>><br>>> Let me get one thing straight to Mr.
Rumelhart and to the rest of you<br>>> lacking any sense of
comprehension.<br>>><br>>> My reference to Nazis was NOT aimed
at Wayne Krauss.<br>>><br>>> My comment, word for word, . .
.<br>>><br>>> "Excusing Krauss because the megaloads weren't
anywhere near US95 or<br>>> Moscow yet is like justifying the Nazis as
long as they knock on somebody<br>>> else's
door."<br>>><br>>> The comparison I clearly drew was between
"megaloads weren't anywhere near<br>>> US95 or Moscow" and Nazis
knocking "on somebody else's door."<br>>><br>>> If you really do
feel like dragging this dead horse around with you, how<br>>> about
taking to your buddies at teh sandbox, ok?<br>>><br>>> 'Nuff
said.<br>>><br>>> Now, if you will excuse me, I have four hours
of Moscow Megaload Meeting<br>>> videos to edit and
post.<br>>><br>>> Tom Hansen<br>>> Moscow,
Idaho<br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>> On Fri,
May 13, 2011 7:34 am, Paul Rumelhart wrote:<br>>> ><br>>>
> Believe me, I'm no fan of Newt Gingrich. All I need to know about
him<br>>> > is that he pressed his first wife for divorce while she
was in the<br>>> > hospital recovering from cancer-related surgery,
not to mention<br>>> > committing adultery while criticizing
Clinton for doing the same thing<br>>> > during the Monica Lewinski
scandal.<br>>> ><br>>> > Anyway, the idea is that the
first person in an argument who compares<br>>> > the other side to
the Nazis loses the debate.<br>>> ><br>>> >
Paul<br>>> ><br>>> > On 05/13/2011 12:00 AM, Saundra Lund
wrote:<br>>> >> Huh -- I wasn't familiar with that
term.<br>>> >><br>>> >> Since you cited the
Wikipedia article ("has been invoked for the<br>>> >>
inappropriate use of Nazi analogies in articles or speeches"), then
do<br>>> >> you agree that hyperbolic "Godwin's law" (which you
obviously accept<br>>> >> since you called it) is far more
appropriately applied to Nasty Newt<br>>> >> Gingrich than to
Tom Hansen& to Ted Moffett (in his "Saint Augustine:<br>>>
>> "Hypocrisy is the tribute that vice pays to virtue"
response)?<br>>> >><br>>> >> Just wonderin'. .
.<br>>> >><br>>> >><br>>> >> Saundra
Lund<br>>> >> Moscow, ID<br>>> >><br>>>
>> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people
to<br>>> >> do nothing.<br>>> >> ~ Edmund
Burke<br>>> >><br>>> >> ***** Original material
contained herein is Copyright 2011 through life<br>>> >> plus 70
years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or<br>>>
>> reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express
written<br>>> >> permission of the author.*****<br>>>
>><br>>> >><br>>> >><br>>> >>
-----Original Message-----<br>>> >> From: Paul Rumelhart
[mailto:<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>]<br>>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 6:34 PM<br>>> >> To: Tom
Hansen<br>>> >> Cc: Saundra Lund; 'Vision 2020'; 'Donovan
Arnold'<br>>> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Questions About
Semi-Megaloads in Moscow<br>>> >><br>>>
>><br>>> >> Wow, you've just Godwin'd this thread by
comparing this issue to the<br>>> >> Nazis. See <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law</a><br>>>
>><br>>> >> I'm not looking forward to having to wait an
hour for these guys to<br>>> >> move<br>>> >> a
semi-megaload down the highway, but let's try to keep some<br>>>
>> perspective<br>>> >> here. We're talking traffic
delays, possible road damage, possible<br>>> >> electricity
outages, and one giant megacorp putting a little more money<br>>>
>> in their giant coffers than they otherwise would. Besides, if we
"win",<br>>> >> they'll just find a more expensive way of moving
these things and force<br>>> >> the extra cost on to the
consumers.<br>>> >><br>>> >> I'm not saying you're
not fighting the good fight, let's just keep it<br>>> >>
in<br>>> >> perspective.<br>>> >><br>>>
>> Paul<br>>> >><br>>> >> On 05/11/2011 11:02
AM, Tom Hansen wrote:<br>>> >>> Excusing Krauss because the
megaloads weren't anywhere near US95 or<br>>> >>> Moscow yet
is like justifying the Nazis as long as they knock on<br>>>
>>> somebody else's door.<br>>> >><br>>> >>
<snip><div class="im"><br>>> >><br>>> >><br>>>
><br>>> >
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