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<DIV>It sounds like now would be a good time for a game of Calvin ball.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Warren Hayman</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=philosopher.joe@gmail.com href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">Joe
Campbell</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=ophite@gmail.com
href="mailto:ophite@gmail.com">Andreas Schou</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">Vision 2020</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, May 13, 2011 12:01 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Godwin's
Rule</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Exactly! Which brings us to:<BR><BR>Campbell's Rule: Who ever
uses Godwin's Rule must be a Nazi!<BR><BR>(Rules get a lot easier to establish
once you leave logic behind!)<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 11:27 AM, Andreas Schou <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:ophite@gmail.com">ophite@gmail.com</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>Wayne --<BR><BR>You know who tried to ban use of Godwin's
Rule?<BR><BR>Hitler.<BR><BR>-- ACS<BR>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=h5><BR>On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 12:11 PM, Art Deco <<A
href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</A>> wrote:<BR>> I hope
we can quell the fallacious use of the so-called Godwin's Rule by<BR>>
showing why it is a fallacy. [Although previous attempts at
rational<BR>> argument with the individuals invoking the rule have been
basically futile.]<BR>><BR>> Godwin's Rule states: "Whoever invokes
the Nazis first loses the argument."<BR>><BR>> Godwin's Rule basically
says it is fallacious to compare anything of less<BR>> than horrendous
consequences (if that) to the Nazis.<BR>><BR>> Wrong.<BR>><BR>>
When A is compared to B, that means there is at least one property P
in<BR>> which A and B are similar. For example: Rotten apples
are like rotten<BR>> eggs. The similar property between rotten
apples and rotten eggs is that<BR>> both can be used
to throw at corrupt politicians.<BR>><BR>> One property that the
Nazi regime had was making unilateral decisions from<BR>> the
highest level without consultation or discussion with those whom the<BR>>
decisions adversely impacted. That property is shared by Governor
Otter in<BR>> the megaload issue. Hence, the reference to
Nazis would be<BR>> correctly applied.<BR>><BR>>
Comparison arguments are generally wrong when there is no property P
in<BR>> which the compared objects share or are similar. There may
be other<BR>> problems with particular comparison arguments, but if the
comparison<BR>> property is shared or similar, that is not the
problem.<BR>><BR>> Like many others on this forum, I find that some of
those who continually<BR>> boast and trumpet themselves as advocates of
free expression use Godwin like<BR>> tactics to attempt to quell
meaningful discussion and dissent.<BR>><BR>> I again recommend the
short, sweet, but hugely informative book Logic by<BR>> Wesley Salmon to
those who are logically impaired. It can be downloaded in<BR>>
parts from the web.<BR>><BR>><BR>> Let me repeat: Nazis are
not the problem we are facing:<BR>><BR>> Big money/oil secretly makes
a deal with Governor Otter, who then dictates<BR>> the terms of the deal
to the sheep at the IDT on matters where there are two<BR>> major areas
of great public impact and concern and where the secret deal<BR>>
prevented serious discussion and consideration:<BR>><BR>>
1. Impacts of this secret deal on citizens adversely
impacted by the<BR>> decision in many, many ways.<BR>><BR>>
2. Impacts of enabling a project with huge adverse
impacts, some of them<BR>> fatal, on many people, the environment,
and the U.S. economy given the<BR>> majority interests in the tar sands
projects held by China, no friend of the<BR>> environment, public health,
or of the sense of fairness in international<BR>> trade, patent, or
currency regulations.<BR>><BR>> ....<BR>><BR>> I again express
my disappointment [and disgust] at Moscow public officials<BR>> not
having the knowledge, insight into their own powers, and the guts to<BR>>
oppose this charade, not only because of the two areas of concern
expressed<BR>> above, but also because of the public policy
considerations of allowing<BR>> citizens to be the roadkill of a
secret steamrolling secret deal about which<BR>> they were prevented from
participating in an open, meaningful discussion and<BR>> debate over
matters of serious importance to them. So much for the party
of<BR>> freedom and respect for the individual.<BR>><BR>> Adding:
if conversations with people I meet while in Moscow are any<BR>>
indication, my disappointment and disgust are widely shared.<BR>><BR>>
Wayne A. Fox<BR>> 1009 Karen Lane<BR>> PO Box 9421<BR>> Moscow,
ID 83843<BR>><BR>> <A
href="mailto:waf@moscow.com">waf@moscow.com</A><BR>> <A
href="tel:208%20882-7975" value="+12088827975">208
882-7975</A><BR>><BR>><BR>> ----- Original Message -----<BR>>
From: Joe Campbell<BR>> To: Paul Rumelhart<BR>> Cc: Vision
2020<BR>> Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 10:31 AM<BR>> Subject: Re:
[Vision2020] Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow<BR>> Give me a
break. Does the interweb "make the rules"? No. The rules began<BR>> with
Aristotle and the Stoics and they were perfected by folks like Boole<BR>>
and Frege. As Wayne clearly noted, reference to the rule -- which was
made<BR>> by you, Paul, not the interweb -- is itself a fallacy and an
attempt to draw<BR>> folks away from the issues. Use of Godwin's Law to
condemn an argument or<BR>> point is no better or worse than calling
someone a Nazi in the first place<BR>> -- unless the person is in fact a
Nazi!<BR>><BR>> I now return you to the real issue, as summarized by
Wayne above ...<BR>><BR>> On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 9:44 AM, Paul
Rumelhart <<A
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</A>><BR>>
wrote:<BR>>><BR>>> I don't make the rules. Take it up with
teh interwebs if you think it's<BR>>> stupid.<BR>>> I'm not
really trying to win any sort of debate here, myself. Just
trying<BR>>> to impart a little perspective. Use at your own
risk. That's why Godwin's<BR>>> Law is remarkably effective,
actually. It's a good indicator that<BR>>> rationality has left
the building and that further debate is only useful for<BR>>> the
lulz.<BR>>><BR>>> Paul<BR>>><BR>>>
________________________________<BR>>> From: Joe Campbell <<A
href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</A>><BR>>>
To: Tom Hansen <<A
href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</A>><BR>>> Cc:
Paul Rumelhart <<A
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</A>>; Saundra
Lund<BR>>> <<A
href="mailto:v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm">v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm</A>>; Vision
2020 <<A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A>><BR>>>
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 9:31 AM<BR>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow<BR>>><BR>>> I made this
point but Paul is not listening. There was no
comparison.<BR>>><BR>>> The claim that "the first person in an
argument who compares the other<BR>>> side to the Nazis loses the
debate" is just stupid. Why not just make the<BR>>> winner the person
with the best haircut? The person with the worst argument<BR>>> loses
the debate.<BR>>><BR>>> On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 8:17 AM, Tom
Hansen <<A href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</A>>
wrote:<BR>>><BR>>> Let me get one thing straight to Mr.
Rumelhart and to the rest of you<BR>>> lacking any sense of
comprehension.<BR>>><BR>>> My reference to Nazis was NOT aimed
at Wayne Krauss.<BR>>><BR>>> My comment, word for word, . .
.<BR>>><BR>>> "Excusing Krauss because the megaloads weren't
anywhere near US95 or<BR>>> Moscow yet is like justifying the Nazis as
long as they knock on somebody<BR>>> else's
door."<BR>>><BR>>> The comparison I clearly drew was between
"megaloads weren't anywhere near<BR>>> US95 or Moscow" and Nazis
knocking "on somebody else's door."<BR>>><BR>>> If you really do
feel like dragging this dead horse around with you, how<BR>>> about
taking to your buddies at teh sandbox, ok?<BR>>><BR>>> 'Nuff
said.<BR>>><BR>>> Now, if you will excuse me, I have four hours
of Moscow Megaload Meeting<BR>>> videos to edit and
post.<BR>>><BR>>> Tom Hansen<BR>>> Moscow,
Idaho<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> On Fri,
May 13, 2011 7:34 am, Paul Rumelhart wrote:<BR>>> ><BR>>>
> Believe me, I'm no fan of Newt Gingrich. All I need to know about
him<BR>>> > is that he pressed his first wife for divorce while she
was in the<BR>>> > hospital recovering from cancer-related surgery,
not to mention<BR>>> > committing adultery while criticizing
Clinton for doing the same thing<BR>>> > during the Monica Lewinski
scandal.<BR>>> ><BR>>> > Anyway, the idea is that the
first person in an argument who compares<BR>>> > the other side to
the Nazis loses the debate.<BR>>> ><BR>>> >
Paul<BR>>> ><BR>>> > On 05/13/2011 12:00 AM, Saundra Lund
wrote:<BR>>> >> Huh -- I wasn't familiar with that
term.<BR>>> >><BR>>> >> Since you cited the
Wikipedia article ("has been invoked for the<BR>>> >>
inappropriate use of Nazi analogies in articles or speeches"), then
do<BR>>> >> you agree that hyperbolic "Godwin's law" (which you
obviously accept<BR>>> >> since you called it) is far more
appropriately applied to Nasty Newt<BR>>> >> Gingrich than to
Tom Hansen& to Ted Moffett (in his "Saint Augustine:<BR>>>
>> "Hypocrisy is the tribute that vice pays to virtue"
response)?<BR>>> >><BR>>> >> Just wonderin'. .
.<BR>>> >><BR>>> >><BR>>> >> Saundra
Lund<BR>>> >> Moscow, ID<BR>>> >><BR>>>
>> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people
to<BR>>> >> do nothing.<BR>>> >> ~ Edmund
Burke<BR>>> >><BR>>> >> ***** Original material
contained herein is Copyright 2011 through life<BR>>> >> plus 70
years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or<BR>>>
>> reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express
written<BR>>> >> permission of the author.*****<BR>>>
>><BR>>> >><BR>>> >><BR>>> >>
-----Original Message-----<BR>>> >> From: Paul Rumelhart
[mailto:<A
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</A>]<BR>>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 6:34 PM<BR>>> >> To: Tom
Hansen<BR>>> >> Cc: Saundra Lund; 'Vision 2020'; 'Donovan
Arnold'<BR>>> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Questions About
Semi-Megaloads in Moscow<BR>>> >><BR>>>
>><BR>>> >> Wow, you've just Godwin'd this thread by
comparing this issue to the<BR>>> >> Nazis. See <A
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law"
target=_blank>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law</A><BR>>>
>><BR>>> >> I'm not looking forward to having to wait an
hour for these guys to<BR>>> >> move<BR>>> >> a
semi-megaload down the highway, but let's try to keep some<BR>>>
>> perspective<BR>>> >> here. We're talking traffic
delays, possible road damage, possible<BR>>> >> electricity
outages, and one giant megacorp putting a little more money<BR>>>
>> in their giant coffers than they otherwise would. Besides, if we
"win",<BR>>> >> they'll just find a more expensive way of moving
these things and force<BR>>> >> the extra cost on to the
consumers.<BR>>> >><BR>>> >> I'm not saying you're
not fighting the good fight, let's just keep it<BR>>> >>
in<BR>>> >> perspective.<BR>>> >><BR>>>
>> Paul<BR>>> >><BR>>> >> On 05/11/2011 11:02
AM, Tom Hansen wrote:<BR>>> >>> Excusing Krauss because the
megaloads weren't anywhere near US95 or<BR>>> >>> Moscow yet
is like justifying the Nazis as long as they knock on<BR>>>
>>> somebody else's door.<BR>>> >><BR>>> >>
<snip><BR>>> >><BR>>> >><BR>>>
><BR>>> >
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