[Vision2020] Godwin's Rule

Joe Campbell philosopher.joe at gmail.com
Fri May 13 12:01:43 PDT 2011 

Exactly! Which brings us to:

Campbell's Rule: Who ever uses Godwin's Rule must be a Nazi!

(Rules get a lot easier to establish once you leave logic behind!)

On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 11:27 AM, Andreas Schou <ophite at gmail.com> wrote:

> Wayne --
>
> You know who tried to ban use of Godwin's Rule?
>
> Hitler.
>
> -- ACS
>
> On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 12:11 PM, Art Deco <deco at moscow.com> wrote:
> > I hope we can quell the fallacious use of the so-called Godwin's Rule by
> > showing why it is a fallacy.  [Although previous attempts at rational
> > argument with the individuals invoking the rule have been basically
> futile.]
> >
> > Godwin's Rule states: "Whoever invokes the Nazis first loses the
> argument."
> >
> > Godwin's Rule basically says it is fallacious to compare anything of less
> > than horrendous consequences (if that) to the Nazis.
> >
> > Wrong.
> >
> > When A is compared to B, that means there is at least one property P in
> > which A and B are similar.  For example:  Rotten apples are like rotten
> > eggs.  The similar property between rotten apples and rotten eggs is that
> > both can be used to throw at corrupt politicians.
> >
> > One property that the Nazi regime had was making unilateral decisions
> from
> > the highest level without consultation or discussion with those whom the
> > decisions adversely impacted.  That property is shared by Governor Otter
> in
> > the megaload issue.  Hence, the reference to Nazis would be
> > correctly applied.
> >
> > Comparison arguments are generally wrong when there is no property P in
> > which the compared objects share or are similar.  There may be other
> > problems with particular comparison arguments, but if the comparison
> > property is shared or similar, that is not the problem.
> >
> > Like many others on this forum, I find that some of those who continually
> > boast and trumpet themselves as advocates of free expression use Godwin
> like
> > tactics to attempt to quell meaningful discussion and dissent.
> >
> > I again recommend the short, sweet, but hugely informative book Logic by
> > Wesley Salmon to those who are logically impaired.  It can be downloaded
> in
> > parts from the web.
> >
> >
> > Let me repeat:  Nazis are not the problem we are facing:
> >
> > Big money/oil secretly makes a deal with Governor Otter, who then
> dictates
> > the terms of the deal to the sheep at the IDT on matters where there are
> two
> > major areas of great public impact and concern and where the secret deal
> > prevented serious discussion and consideration:
> >
> > 1.    Impacts of this secret deal on citizens adversely impacted by the
> > decision in many, many ways.
> >
> > 2.    Impacts of enabling a project with huge adverse impacts, some of
> them
> > fatal, on many people, the environment, and the U.S. economy given the
> > majority interests in the tar sands projects held by China, no friend of
> the
> > environment, public health, or of the sense of fairness in international
> > trade, patent, or currency regulations.
> >
> > ....
> >
> > I again express my disappointment [and disgust] at Moscow public
> officials
> > not having the knowledge, insight into their own powers, and the guts to
> > oppose this charade, not only because of the two areas of concern
> expressed
> > above, but also because of the public policy considerations of allowing
> > citizens to be the roadkill of a secret steamrolling secret deal about
> which
> > they were prevented from participating in an open, meaningful discussion
> and
> > debate over matters of serious importance to them.  So much for the party
> of
> > freedom and respect for the individual.
> >
> > Adding: if conversations with people I meet while in Moscow are any
> > indication, my disappointment and disgust are widely shared.
> >
> > Wayne A. Fox
> > 1009 Karen Lane
> > PO Box 9421
> > Moscow, ID  83843
> >
> > waf at moscow.com
> > 208 882-7975
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Joe Campbell
> > To: Paul Rumelhart
> > Cc: Vision 2020
> > Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 10:31 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow
> > Give me a break. Does the interweb "make the rules"? No. The rules began
> > with Aristotle and the Stoics and they were perfected by folks like Boole
> > and Frege. As Wayne clearly noted, reference to the rule -- which was
> made
> > by you, Paul, not the interweb -- is itself a fallacy and an attempt to
> draw
> > folks away from the issues. Use of Godwin's Law to condemn an argument or
> > point is no better or worse than calling someone a Nazi in the first
> place
> > -- unless the person is in fact a Nazi!
> >
> > I now return you to the real issue, as summarized by Wayne above ...
> >
> > On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 9:44 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> I don't make the rules.  Take it up with teh interwebs if you think it's
> >> stupid.
> >> I'm not really trying to win any sort of debate here, myself.  Just
> trying
> >> to impart a little perspective.  Use at your own risk.  That's why
> Godwin's
> >> Law is remarkably effective, actually.  It's a good indicator that
> >> rationality has left the building and that further debate is only useful
> for
> >> the lulz.
> >>
> >> Paul
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
> >> To: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
> >> Cc: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>; Saundra Lund
> >> <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>; Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 9:31 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow
> >>
> >> I made this point but Paul is not listening. There was no comparison.
> >>
> >> The claim that "the first person in an argument who compares the other
> >> side to the Nazis loses the debate" is just stupid. Why not just make
> the
> >> winner the person with the best haircut? The person with the worst
> argument
> >> loses the debate.
> >>
> >> On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 8:17 AM, Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Let me get one thing straight to Mr. Rumelhart and to the rest of you
> >> lacking any sense of comprehension.
> >>
> >> My reference to Nazis was NOT aimed at Wayne Krauss.
> >>
> >> My comment, word for word, . . .
> >>
> >> "Excusing Krauss because the megaloads weren't anywhere near US95 or
> >> Moscow yet is like justifying the Nazis as long as they knock on
> somebody
> >> else's door."
> >>
> >> The comparison I clearly drew was between "megaloads weren't anywhere
> near
> >> US95 or Moscow" and Nazis knocking "on somebody else's door."
> >>
> >> If you really do feel like dragging this dead horse around with you, how
> >> about taking to your buddies at teh sandbox, ok?
> >>
> >> 'Nuff said.
> >>
> >> Now, if you will excuse me, I have four hours of Moscow Megaload Meeting
> >> videos to edit and post.
> >>
> >> Tom Hansen
> >> Moscow, Idaho
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, May 13, 2011 7:34 am, Paul Rumelhart wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Believe me, I'm no fan of Newt Gingrich.  All I need to know about him
> >> > is that he pressed his first wife for divorce while she was in the
> >> > hospital recovering from cancer-related surgery, not to mention
> >> > committing adultery while criticizing Clinton for doing the same thing
> >> > during the Monica Lewinski scandal.
> >> >
> >> > Anyway, the idea is that the first person in an argument who compares
> >> > the other side to the Nazis loses the debate.
> >> >
> >> > Paul
> >> >
> >> > On 05/13/2011 12:00 AM, Saundra Lund wrote:
> >> >> Huh -- I wasn't familiar with that term.
> >> >>
> >> >> Since you cited the Wikipedia article ("has been invoked for the
> >> >> inappropriate use of Nazi analogies in articles or speeches"), then
> do
> >> >> you agree that hyperbolic "Godwin's law" (which you obviously accept
> >> >> since you called it) is far more appropriately applied to Nasty Newt
> >> >> Gingrich than to Tom Hansen&  to Ted Moffett (in his "Saint
> Augustine:
> >> >> "Hypocrisy is the tribute that vice pays to virtue" response)?
> >> >>
> >> >> Just wonderin'. . .
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Saundra Lund
> >> >> Moscow, ID
> >> >>
> >> >> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people
> to
> >> >> do nothing.
> >> >> ~ Edmund Burke
> >> >>
> >> >> ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2011 through
> life
> >> >> plus 70 years, Saundra Lund.  Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or
> >> >> reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express written
> >> >> permission of the author.*****
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> >> From: Paul Rumelhart [mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com]
> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 6:34 PM
> >> >> To: Tom Hansen
> >> >> Cc: Saundra Lund; 'Vision 2020'; 'Donovan Arnold'
> >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Wow, you've just Godwin'd this thread by comparing this issue to the
> >> >> Nazis. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law
> >> >>
> >> >> I'm not looking forward to having to wait an hour for these guys to
> >> >> move
> >> >> a semi-megaload down the highway, but let's try to keep some
> >> >> perspective
> >> >> here. We're talking traffic delays, possible road damage, possible
> >> >> electricity outages, and one giant megacorp putting a little more
> money
> >> >> in their giant coffers than they otherwise would. Besides, if we
> "win",
> >> >> they'll just find a more expensive way of moving these things and
> force
> >> >> the extra cost on to the consumers.
> >> >>
> >> >> I'm not saying you're not fighting the good fight, let's just keep it
> >> >> in
> >> >> perspective.
> >> >>
> >> >> Paul
> >> >>
> >> >> On 05/11/2011 11:02 AM, Tom Hansen wrote:
> >> >>> Excusing Krauss because the megaloads weren't anywhere near US95 or
> >> >>> Moscow yet is like justifying the Nazis as long as they knock on
> >> >>> somebody else's door.
> >> >>
> >> >> <snip>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > =======================================================
> >> >  List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >> >  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> >                http://www.fsr.net
> >> >           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> > =======================================================
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to
> >> changeand the Realist adjusts his sails."
> >>
> >>  - Unknown
> >>
> >>
> >> =======================================================
> >>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >>               http://www.fsr.net
> >>          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> =======================================================
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > =======================================================
> >  List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >                http://www.fsr.net
> >           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > =======================================================
> >
> > =======================================================
> >  List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >               http://www.fsr.net
> >          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > =======================================================
> >
>
> =======================================================
>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>               http://www.fsr.net
>          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
>
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