Exactly! Which brings us to:<br><br>Campbell's Rule: Who ever uses Godwin's Rule must be a Nazi!<br><br>(Rules get a lot easier to establish once you leave logic behind!)<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 11:27 AM, Andreas Schou <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ophite@gmail.com">ophite@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">Wayne --<br>
<br>
You know who tried to ban use of Godwin's Rule?<br>
<br>
Hitler.<br>
<br>
-- ACS<br>
<div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 12:11 PM, Art Deco <<a href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> I hope we can quell the fallacious use of the so-called Godwin's Rule by<br>
> showing why it is a fallacy. [Although previous attempts at rational<br>
> argument with the individuals invoking the rule have been basically futile.]<br>
><br>
> Godwin's Rule states: "Whoever invokes the Nazis first loses the argument."<br>
><br>
> Godwin's Rule basically says it is fallacious to compare anything of less<br>
> than horrendous consequences (if that) to the Nazis.<br>
><br>
> Wrong.<br>
><br>
> When A is compared to B, that means there is at least one property P in<br>
> which A and B are similar. For example: Rotten apples are like rotten<br>
> eggs. The similar property between rotten apples and rotten eggs is that<br>
> both can be used to throw at corrupt politicians.<br>
><br>
> One property that the Nazi regime had was making unilateral decisions from<br>
> the highest level without consultation or discussion with those whom the<br>
> decisions adversely impacted. That property is shared by Governor Otter in<br>
> the megaload issue. Hence, the reference to Nazis would be<br>
> correctly applied.<br>
><br>
> Comparison arguments are generally wrong when there is no property P in<br>
> which the compared objects share or are similar. There may be other<br>
> problems with particular comparison arguments, but if the comparison<br>
> property is shared or similar, that is not the problem.<br>
><br>
> Like many others on this forum, I find that some of those who continually<br>
> boast and trumpet themselves as advocates of free expression use Godwin like<br>
> tactics to attempt to quell meaningful discussion and dissent.<br>
><br>
> I again recommend the short, sweet, but hugely informative book Logic by<br>
> Wesley Salmon to those who are logically impaired. It can be downloaded in<br>
> parts from the web.<br>
><br>
><br>
> Let me repeat: Nazis are not the problem we are facing:<br>
><br>
> Big money/oil secretly makes a deal with Governor Otter, who then dictates<br>
> the terms of the deal to the sheep at the IDT on matters where there are two<br>
> major areas of great public impact and concern and where the secret deal<br>
> prevented serious discussion and consideration:<br>
><br>
> 1. Impacts of this secret deal on citizens adversely impacted by the<br>
> decision in many, many ways.<br>
><br>
> 2. Impacts of enabling a project with huge adverse impacts, some of them<br>
> fatal, on many people, the environment, and the U.S. economy given the<br>
> majority interests in the tar sands projects held by China, no friend of the<br>
> environment, public health, or of the sense of fairness in international<br>
> trade, patent, or currency regulations.<br>
><br>
> ....<br>
><br>
> I again express my disappointment [and disgust] at Moscow public officials<br>
> not having the knowledge, insight into their own powers, and the guts to<br>
> oppose this charade, not only because of the two areas of concern expressed<br>
> above, but also because of the public policy considerations of allowing<br>
> citizens to be the roadkill of a secret steamrolling secret deal about which<br>
> they were prevented from participating in an open, meaningful discussion and<br>
> debate over matters of serious importance to them. So much for the party of<br>
> freedom and respect for the individual.<br>
><br>
> Adding: if conversations with people I meet while in Moscow are any<br>
> indication, my disappointment and disgust are widely shared.<br>
><br>
> Wayne A. Fox<br>
> 1009 Karen Lane<br>
> PO Box 9421<br>
> Moscow, ID 83843<br>
><br>
> <a href="mailto:waf@moscow.com">waf@moscow.com</a><br>
> <a href="tel:208%20882-7975" value="+12088827975">208 882-7975</a><br>
><br>
><br>
> ----- Original Message -----<br>
> From: Joe Campbell<br>
> To: Paul Rumelhart<br>
> Cc: Vision 2020<br>
> Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 10:31 AM<br>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow<br>
> Give me a break. Does the interweb "make the rules"? No. The rules began<br>
> with Aristotle and the Stoics and they were perfected by folks like Boole<br>
> and Frege. As Wayne clearly noted, reference to the rule -- which was made<br>
> by you, Paul, not the interweb -- is itself a fallacy and an attempt to draw<br>
> folks away from the issues. Use of Godwin's Law to condemn an argument or<br>
> point is no better or worse than calling someone a Nazi in the first place<br>
> -- unless the person is in fact a Nazi!<br>
><br>
> I now return you to the real issue, as summarized by Wayne above ...<br>
><br>
> On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 9:44 AM, Paul Rumelhart <<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>><br>
> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> I don't make the rules. Take it up with teh interwebs if you think it's<br>
>> stupid.<br>
>> I'm not really trying to win any sort of debate here, myself. Just trying<br>
>> to impart a little perspective. Use at your own risk. That's why Godwin's<br>
>> Law is remarkably effective, actually. It's a good indicator that<br>
>> rationality has left the building and that further debate is only useful for<br>
>> the lulz.<br>
>><br>
>> Paul<br>
>><br>
>> ________________________________<br>
>> From: Joe Campbell <<a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> To: Tom Hansen <<a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a>><br>
>> Cc: Paul Rumelhart <<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>>; Saundra Lund<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm">v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm</a>>; Vision 2020 <<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>><br>
>> Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 9:31 AM<br>
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow<br>
>><br>
>> I made this point but Paul is not listening. There was no comparison.<br>
>><br>
>> The claim that "the first person in an argument who compares the other<br>
>> side to the Nazis loses the debate" is just stupid. Why not just make the<br>
>> winner the person with the best haircut? The person with the worst argument<br>
>> loses the debate.<br>
>><br>
>> On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 8:17 AM, Tom Hansen <<a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Let me get one thing straight to Mr. Rumelhart and to the rest of you<br>
>> lacking any sense of comprehension.<br>
>><br>
>> My reference to Nazis was NOT aimed at Wayne Krauss.<br>
>><br>
>> My comment, word for word, . . .<br>
>><br>
>> "Excusing Krauss because the megaloads weren't anywhere near US95 or<br>
>> Moscow yet is like justifying the Nazis as long as they knock on somebody<br>
>> else's door."<br>
>><br>
>> The comparison I clearly drew was between "megaloads weren't anywhere near<br>
>> US95 or Moscow" and Nazis knocking "on somebody else's door."<br>
>><br>
>> If you really do feel like dragging this dead horse around with you, how<br>
>> about taking to your buddies at teh sandbox, ok?<br>
>><br>
>> 'Nuff said.<br>
>><br>
>> Now, if you will excuse me, I have four hours of Moscow Megaload Meeting<br>
>> videos to edit and post.<br>
>><br>
>> Tom Hansen<br>
>> Moscow, Idaho<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Fri, May 13, 2011 7:34 am, Paul Rumelhart wrote:<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Believe me, I'm no fan of Newt Gingrich. All I need to know about him<br>
>> > is that he pressed his first wife for divorce while she was in the<br>
>> > hospital recovering from cancer-related surgery, not to mention<br>
>> > committing adultery while criticizing Clinton for doing the same thing<br>
>> > during the Monica Lewinski scandal.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Anyway, the idea is that the first person in an argument who compares<br>
>> > the other side to the Nazis loses the debate.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Paul<br>
>> ><br>
>> > On 05/13/2011 12:00 AM, Saundra Lund wrote:<br>
>> >> Huh -- I wasn't familiar with that term.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Since you cited the Wikipedia article ("has been invoked for the<br>
>> >> inappropriate use of Nazi analogies in articles or speeches"), then do<br>
>> >> you agree that hyperbolic "Godwin's law" (which you obviously accept<br>
>> >> since you called it) is far more appropriately applied to Nasty Newt<br>
>> >> Gingrich than to Tom Hansen& to Ted Moffett (in his "Saint Augustine:<br>
>> >> "Hypocrisy is the tribute that vice pays to virtue" response)?<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Just wonderin'. . .<br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Saundra Lund<br>
>> >> Moscow, ID<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to<br>
>> >> do nothing.<br>
>> >> ~ Edmund Burke<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2011 through life<br>
>> >> plus 70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or<br>
>> >> reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express written<br>
>> >> permission of the author.*****<br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> -----Original Message-----<br>
>> >> From: Paul Rumelhart [mailto:<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>]<br>
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 6:34 PM<br>
>> >> To: Tom Hansen<br>
>> >> Cc: Saundra Lund; 'Vision 2020'; 'Donovan Arnold'<br>
>> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow<br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Wow, you've just Godwin'd this thread by comparing this issue to the<br>
>> >> Nazis. See <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law</a><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> I'm not looking forward to having to wait an hour for these guys to<br>
>> >> move<br>
>> >> a semi-megaload down the highway, but let's try to keep some<br>
>> >> perspective<br>
>> >> here. We're talking traffic delays, possible road damage, possible<br>
>> >> electricity outages, and one giant megacorp putting a little more money<br>
>> >> in their giant coffers than they otherwise would. Besides, if we "win",<br>
>> >> they'll just find a more expensive way of moving these things and force<br>
>> >> the extra cost on to the consumers.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> I'm not saying you're not fighting the good fight, let's just keep it<br>
>> >> in<br>
>> >> perspective.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Paul<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> On 05/11/2011 11:02 AM, Tom Hansen wrote:<br>
>> >>> Excusing Krauss because the megaloads weren't anywhere near US95 or<br>
>> >>> Moscow yet is like justifying the Nazis as long as they knock on<br>
>> >>> somebody else's door.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> <snip><br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> ><br>
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>> ><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to<br>
>> changeand the Realist adjusts his sails."<br>
>><br>
>> - Unknown<br>
>><br>
>><br>
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>><br>
>><br>
><br>
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><br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br>