[Vision2020] A lesson from "Waters" How to Lie with Statistics

Tue Nov 2 16:24:26 PDT 2010

Wayne, thanks for your response.  I've been - charitably - digging trying to
figure out where in the heck he came up with his numbers because they are
just plain wrong (i.e., employee Social Security is 6.2%, but only up to
$106,800 & the employer must match that; self-employed is 12.4% up to
$106,800 & then nothing; you nailed the federal tax misinformation; etc.)
but have had a lot of other stuff on my plate today.  My dh's response was
to ask me why I was bothering when I should have learned by now that one
can't have a reasonable discussion with someone who isn't interested in
facts but rather in fairy tales.

I was quite interested in Stockman's comments on 60 Minutes & thought Rob
Waters might have some constructive comments, but I guess not.  I'll restate
what I said earlier:  I simply do not understand why so-called fiscal
conservatives are all for gutting programs that actually help living,
breathing Americans yet are quite satisfied to leave the decades & decades
of fraud, waste, abuse, inefficiency, cost overruns, and outright theft
rampant in military spending untouched, "bad" spending that has driven debt
more than human programs like Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, food
stamps, CHIPs, HeadStart, etc.  No one with a functioning brain & an
interest in fiscal responsibility could not want to address that, yet they
never do & instead hurl names like "unpatriotic," "un-American,"
"socialist," "commie," etc. at those of us who are sick & tired of military
spending run amok for longer than any humane programs have even existed!

That fact, I think, tells us more about their opinion of our fellow
Americans than any of their rhetoric.  Any, why on earth the rest of us have
allowed people like that to co-op the term "conservative" is a genuine
travesty . . . and a significant part of the reason the GOP is in such
horrible shape.

Saundra Lund

Moscow, ID

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
nothing.

~ Edmund Burke

***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2010 through life plus
70 years, Saundra Lund.  Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside
the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the
author.*****

From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
On Behalf Of Art Deco
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 2:54 PM
To: Vision 2020
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A lesson from "Waters" How to Lie with Statistics

It is not clear if "Rob Waters" is actually your real name, but your posts
resemble those of certain members of an infamous local cult whose methods of
presentation use the tricks discussed in How to Lie with Statistics by
Darrell Huff.

For example, your claim that moderately to very successful people pay 25% -
37% of their income in federal taxes.  Wrong!  See

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html  See Table 1.  You only
exaggerated by doubling the percent.  25% - 37% is paid on the amount
exceeding a certain net income amount (income after all tax breaks have been
taken).  I leave it to you to read the actual figures presented and the
accompanying discussion.

What you have also dishonestly omitted is that 2/3 of all for-profit U.S.
corporations pay no federal income tax at all.  See

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/business/13tax.html

The rest of your so-called facts are similarly inaccurate and incomplete.

It didn't take long from your first appearance on Vision 2020 to show
yourself as an arrogant liar.  Good luck in trying to engage anyone here in
a meaningful discussion unless you give a believable source for your
so-called facts.

People from all over the political continuum agree that tax laws need to be
changed.  Lying does not help forward the discussion of this issue.  In your
case it gives the impression that conservatives need to lie to attempt to
persuade others that their position on tax policy is correct.  I don't think
all conservatives lie, but those that do weaken the honest conservatives'
positions and make all of us suspicious of their motives.

When I first read your posts, I thought:  "Here is some liberal trying to
make conservatives look stupid and uninformed."  Perhaps that is the case,
or your posts are attempt to distract some of us from other issues now
simmering just below boil whose revelation might be found embarrassing by a
number of people, or you really are stupid and uninformed.

Wayne A. Fox
1009 Karen Lane
PO Box 9421
Moscow, ID  83843

waf at moscow.com
208 882-7975

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Rob Waters <mailto:robwaters74 at gmail.com>  

To: vision2020 at moscow.com 

Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 9:03 PM

Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Latah County Election Summ ary and
CandidateComparison

Sandra, 

Thank you for the long, thoughtful post. I'm trying to get some other work
done tonight, but thought I should give you at least a brief reply. Given
your quote below which makes your perspective fairly clear, even if I were
Hemingway, I doubt I will make much headway.

Moderately successful people to very successful people are already taxed
between 36% and 65%. 

Fed tax of 25-37%, 

SS tax of 6+-13% Depending if you are self employed

State tax of 5-12%

Add disablility, unemployement taxes, etc and you get real quick to 65%

(These are resonably accurate estimates)

You may think this is not high enough, but most people will quit producing
if 2 of every 3 dollars goes to the government. Millionaire taxes in several
states have already shown this. You quickly get into diminishing returns and
not only do you begin to loose taxes from the rich, but also the people they
no longer hire. You can only wring so much blood out of the "Golden Goose"
before you kill it. It may pain you to hear this, but most people don't work
10-15 hour days to run a successful business, so they can do their civic
duty and give it to the government. People with money don't have to work. 

The only people paying little or no tax are people under about 40K which is
probably 90% of the population, and I bet you don't want to tax them at all.

So that leaves BIG budget cuts...

Rob

On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 7:18 PM, Saundra Lund <v2020 at ssl.fastmail.fm> wrote:

Given the incredible debt that's been amassed due to the war-mongering of
the industrial-military complex, I remain quite interested what solutions
anti-tax advocates recommend that don't throw their fellow Americans under
the bus.

  _____  

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