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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Wayne, thanks for your response. I’ve been – charitably – digging trying to figure out where in the heck he came up with his numbers because they are just plain wrong (i.e., employee Social Security is 6.2%, but only up to $106,800 & the employer must match that; self-employed is 12.4% up to $106,800 & then nothing; you nailed the federal tax misinformation; etc.) but have had a lot of other stuff on my plate today. My dh’s response was to ask me why I was bothering when I should have learned by now that one can’t have a reasonable discussion with someone who isn’t interested in facts but rather in fairy tales.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I was quite interested in Stockman’s comments on 60 Minutes & thought Rob Waters might have some constructive comments, but I guess not. I’ll restate what I said earlier: I simply do <b>not</b> understand why so-called fiscal conservatives are all for gutting programs that actually help living, breathing Americans yet are quite satisfied to leave the decades & decades of fraud, waste, abuse, inefficiency, cost overruns, and outright theft rampant in military spending untouched, “bad” spending that has driven debt more than human programs like Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, food stamps, CHIPs, HeadStart, etc. No one with a functioning brain & an interest in fiscal responsibility could <b>not</b> want to address that, yet they never do & instead hurl names like “unpatriotic,” “un-American,” “socialist,” “commie,” etc. at those of us who are sick & tired of military spending run amok for longer than any humane programs have even existed!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>That fact, I think, tells us more about their opinion of our fellow Americans than any of their rhetoric. Any, why on earth the rest of us have allowed people like that to co-op the term “conservative” is a genuine travesty . . . and a significant part of the reason the GOP is in such horrible shape.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Saundra Lund<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Moscow, ID<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>~ Edmund Burke<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2010 through life plus 70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the author.*****<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> vision2020-bounces@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Art Deco<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 02, 2010 2:54 PM<br><b>To:</b> Vision 2020<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] A lesson from "Waters" How to Lie with Statistics<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>It is not clear if "Rob Waters" is actually your real name, but your posts resemble those of certain members of an infamous local cult whose methods of presentation use the tricks discussed in <em>How to Lie with Statistics </em>by Darrell Huff.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>For example, your claim that moderately to very successful people pay 25% - 37% of their income in federal taxes. Wrong! See<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a href="http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html">http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html</a> See Table 1. You only exaggerated by doubling the percent. 25% - 37% is paid on the amount exceeding a certain <strong>net</strong> income amount (income after all tax breaks have been taken). I leave it to you to read the actual figures presented and the accompanying discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>What you have also dishonestly omitted is that 2/3 of all for-profit U.S. corporations pay no federal income tax at all. See<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/business/13tax.html">http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/business/13tax.html</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>The rest of your so-called facts are similarly inaccurate and incomplete.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>It didn't take long from your first appearance on Vision 2020 to show yourself as an arrogant liar. Good luck in trying to engage anyone here in a meaningful discussion unless you give a believable source for your so-called facts.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>People from all over the political continuum agree that tax laws need to be changed. Lying does not help forward the discussion of this issue. In your case it gives the impression that conservatives need to lie to attempt to persuade others that their position on tax policy is correct. I don't think all conservatives lie, but those that do weaken the honest conservatives' positions and make all of us suspicious of their motives.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>When I first read your posts, I thought: "Here is some liberal trying to make conservatives look stupid and uninformed." Perhaps that is the case, or your posts are attempt to distract some of us from other issues now simmering just below boil whose revelation might be found embarrassing by a number of people, or you really are stupid and uninformed.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>Wayne A. Fox<br>1009 Karen Lane<br>PO Box 9421<br>Moscow, ID 83843<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a href="mailto:waf@moscow.com">waf@moscow.com</a><br>208 882-7975<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:robwaters74@gmail.com" title="robwaters74@gmail.com">Rob Waters</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" title="vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Monday, November 01, 2010 9:03 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Subject:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Re: [Vision2020] Latah County Election Summ ary and CandidateComparison<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Sandra, <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Thank you for the long, thoughtful post. I'm trying to get some other work done tonight, but thought I should give you at least a brief reply. Given your quote below which makes your perspective fairly clear, even if I were Hemingway, I doubt I will make much headway.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Moderately successful people to very successful people are already taxed between 36% and 65%. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Fed tax of 25-37%, <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>SS tax of 6+-13% Depending if you are self employed<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>State tax of 5-12%<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Add disablility, unemployement taxes, etc and you get real quick to 65%<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>(These are resonably accurate estimates)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>You may think this is not high enough, but most people will quit producing if 2 of every 3 dollars goes to the government. Millionaire taxes in several states have already shown this. You quickly get into diminishing returns and not only do you begin to loose taxes from the rich, but also the people they no longer hire. You can only wring so much blood out of the "Golden Goose" before you kill it. It may pain you to hear this, but most people don't work 10-15 hour days to run a successful business, so they can do their civic duty and give it to the government. People with money don't have to work. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The only people paying little or no tax are people under about 40K which is probably 90% of the population, and I bet you don't want to tax them at all.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>So that leaves BIG budget cuts...<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Rob<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 7:18 PM, Saundra Lund <<a href="mailto:v2020@ssl.fastmail.fm">v2020@ssl.fastmail.fm</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Given the incredible debt that’s been amassed due to the war-mongering of the industrial-military complex, I remain quite interested what solutions anti-tax advocates recommend that don’t throw their fellow Americans under the bus.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></div><p class=MsoNormal>=======================================================<br> List services made available by First Step Internet, <br> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br> <a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a> <br> <a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>=======================================================<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></body></html>