[Vision2020] A Dilemma

Wed Sep 23 09:06:47 PDT 2009

Since Christians like myself believe that Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the law, and that life in him is not life under law -- much less the Mosaic Law from which you quote -- your assumption that Bible-believing churches hold to what you describe below is false.  No Christian church that I know of, and no church in the mainstream (not "mainline") of evangelical thought and practice, would ever supplant freedom, inclusion, and egalitarianism in Christ with the Mosaic Law he did away with by his death and resurrection.  Nobody but a crazy person would consider chopping off a man's genitals so he couldn't go to heaven, and only someone unfamiliar with the Gospel and New Testament theology would suggest that.

And I have to disagree on an earlier point you made about Calvinism.  While I am not a Calvinist, and believe there is much in that theology that's at odds with Scripture, Christians do not consider Calvinists aberrant or cultic at all -- it's an in-house disagreement that doesn't affect the fundamentals of the faith.  And no one in the Church rejects Calvinism because Calvinists don't believe that Jesus taught salvation by good works.  Christians don't believe that he taught that; we believe in salvation by faith in Christ.  That salvation is evidenced by good works.  No truly Biblical Christian would argue that we are saved by the works we do.  We're saved by the works Christ did -- we're just charged to act like him in this world.  And too often I don't.

I'm pretty sure others on Vision don't find this stuff at all interesting, but I'm happy to dialogue with you on my blog . . . 

Keely
www.keely-prevailingwinds.com

From: deco at moscow.com
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 18:53:08 -0700
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Dilemma

Since I sent the post below, I have received some very interesting 
information, and have had a stimulating discussion.  These gave birth to 
some further thoughts and questions with respect to:

King James 
Bible Deuteronomy 
23:

1 He that is 
wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into 
the congregation of the LORD.

2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his 
tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

Suppose a male elder, deacon, or the parson himself 
of some church who believed in the inerrancy of the bible was "wounded in the 
stones, or hath his privy member cut off" or (male or female) was a bastard 
or an issue originating with a bastard unto the tenth generation, but continued 
to participate in or to lead church services in direct contravention of the 
alleged words of his/her alleged god?  Would that not only be sacrilegious, 
but outright fraud/con artistry?

Since those unfortunates described in the KJB cite above "shall not 
enter into the congregation of the LORD," should one do so then the congregation 
immediately ceases to be a "congregation of the LORD."  Hence, those 
legitimate believers at those compromised services are unknowingly 
defrauded of the alleged benefits/blessings allegedly bestowed during such 
compromised services.

Repeat from below:   Since the alleged 
heaven of the inerrant bible believers is a congregation of the LORD, 
then no man so maimed as above can go to heaven.  So, if the allegedly 
inerrant passage cited above is true, then anyone could prevent a particular man 
from going to heaven simply by executing a quick, simple operation.  
It follows that someone seeking revenge for being cuckolded, 
especially by a male parson, could exact eternal revenge in 
this manner.

Suppose a male parson fathers a child (or children) in an 
adulterous relationship(s).  Then his own offspring and their 
subsequent issue unto the tenth generation could not attend church services 
(which might really be a blessing) and would not be eligible for some alleged 
heaven.

Then there is the question of fundamental fairness.  Most of us 
believe in the ethical principle "An innocent person should not be 
punished for a deed/sin/crime they did not commit."

A bastard did not participate in the act which resulted in their 
conception.  Neither did their issue unto the tenth generation.  
However, all these innocents, given the truth (inerrancy) of the KJB, are being 
summarily deprived of a shot at some alleged heaven.

Is that something an alleged perfectly good god would do?

This discussion is about the patent absurdity of the position that the 
bible is the inerrant word of some allegedly all-powerful, omniscient, perfectly 
good god.  If a premise results in a false conclusion, then the premise 
itself is false (modus tollens http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modus_tollens).  
More to the point: if a premise results in an absurdly false conclusion, then 
the premise itself is absurdly false, e.g., the bible is the inerrant word 
of some allegedly all-powerful, omniscient, perfectly good god. 

But if any statement in the bible is false, then it opens up the 
possibility that some or all of the statements in the bible are false.  How 
can one separate the true from the false with any claim of authenticity?  
The bible itself offers no solution or clue to the resolution of this 
dilemma.

Further, the bible is touted as the handbook/manual for correct living and 
achieving a reward of eternal bliss according to some alleged all-powerful, 
omniscient, perfectly good god.  

However, the presence of mistakes/absurdities/errors in the bible casts 
certain doubt on the all-powerfulness, omniscience, and perfected goodness of 
the alleged god author.  If this alleged god cannot even write a clear, 
unambiguous, error free guide for living correctly and achieving eternal 
bliss, how could it be expected to deliver as promised all the multitude of 
fantastic promises made in the bible about eternity?

Art Deco

Wayne A. Fox
1009 Karen Lane
PO Box 9421
Moscow, ID  
83843

waf at moscow.com
208 882-7975

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: 
  Art Deco 
  To: Vision 2020 
  Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 1:43 
  PM
  Subject: [Vision2020] A Dilemma

  Here is an interesting dilemma for those who believe 
  that the Holy Bible is the inerrant word of some allegedly 
  all-powerful, omniscient god.

  King 
  James Bible Deuteronomy 
  23:

1 He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut 
  off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

  2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the 
  LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of 
  the LORD.

  This allegedly inerrant pronouncement of the alleged god 
  claimed by  the Bible Inerrants, including our local Christ Church Cult, 
  presents a real dilemma for them for several reasons:  

  If a member loses one or both of his testicles and/or his 
  penis due to an operation to excise a pathological condition or due to any 
  other cause, then he shall not be allowed to attend church.  If he does 
  so, the church services he attends cease to be a congregation of the 
  LORD.  Thus, the presence of such a person nullifies the gathering and 
  the blessings/protections/etc such services allegedly bestow on those 
  present.  If the parson of such a gathering knowingly and willfully 
  allows a such a maimed person into the congregational services, thus 
  nullifying it for all others, then it appears that the parson has knowingly 
  and willfully flouted the commands of his alleged god.  Draw your own 
  conclusion about the alleged holiness of such a parson, especially if the 
  maimed person is a man of wealth generous to the church.

  Since the alleged heaven of the inerrant bible 
  believers is a congregation of the LORD, then no man so maimed as 
  above can go to heaven.  So, if the allegedly inerrant passage cited 
  above is true, then anyone could prevent a particular man from going to heaven 
  simply by executing a quick, simple operation.

  Since no bastard and any issue begatted by such to the 
  tenth generation is allowed into a congregation of the LORD, then any person 
  meeting such a description is not only not allowed into a church service 
  , but is SOL from the alleged heaven.  Thus, the presence of such a 
  person described by the second passage above in a church 
  service nullifies that congregational gathering and the 
  blessings/protections/etc it allegedly bestows on those present.  If the 
  parson of such a gathering knowingly and willfully allows a such a person into 
  the congregational services, thus nullifying it for all others, then it 
  appears that the parson has knowingly and willfully flouted the commands of 
  his alleged god.  Draw your own conclusion about the alleged holiness of 
  such a parson.

  Note that any alleged congregational services attended by 
  any bastard or issue of such to the tenth generation is NOT a congregation of 
  the LORD according to the passages cited.  I wonder if how many services 
  have been so nullified?  Almost all, I'd guess.

  Further, the above two passages seem to contradict the 
  main tenets of the alleged teachings of Christ as found in the Synoptic 
  Gospels, especially Matthew 25:31 .

  Confronted with this bit of information, I wonder 
  what our local cultmaster will do.  [Where money is involved, is there 
  any doubt?]

  Art Deco

  [Wayne A. Fox
1009 Karen Lane
PO Box 9421
Moscow, 
  ID  83843

  waf at moscow.com
208 
  882-7975]

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