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Since Christians like myself believe that Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the law, and that life in him is not life under law -- much less the Mosaic Law from which you quote -- your assumption that Bible-believing churches hold to what you describe below is false. No Christian church that I know of, and no church in the mainstream (not "mainline") of evangelical thought and practice, would ever supplant freedom, inclusion, and egalitarianism in Christ with the Mosaic Law he did away with by his death and resurrection. Nobody but a crazy person would consider chopping off a man's genitals so he couldn't go to heaven, and only someone unfamiliar with the Gospel and New Testament theology would suggest that.<br><br>And I have to disagree on an earlier point you made about Calvinism. While I am not a Calvinist, and believe there is much in that theology that's at odds with Scripture, Christians do not consider Calvinists aberrant or cultic at all -- it's an in-house disagreement that doesn't affect the fundamentals of the faith. And no one in the Church rejects Calvinism because Calvinists don't believe that Jesus taught salvation by good works. Christians don't believe that he taught that; we believe in salvation by faith in Christ. That salvation is evidenced by good works. No truly Biblical Christian would argue that we are saved by the works we do. We're saved by the works Christ did -- we're just charged to act like him in this world. And too often I don't.<br><br>I'm pretty sure others on Vision don't find this stuff at all interesting, but I'm happy to dialogue with you on my blog . . . <br><br><font style="" color="#8064a2"><font style="font-size: 12pt;" size="3"><font style="" face="Verdana">Keely<br>www.keely-prevailingwinds.com<br></font></font></font><br><br><br><br><hr id="stopSpelling">From: deco@moscow.com<br>To: vision2020@moscow.com<br>Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 18:53:08 -0700<br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Dilemma<br><br>
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<div>Since I sent the post below, I have received some very interesting
information, and have had a stimulating discussion. These gave birth to
some further thoughts and questions with respect to:</div>
<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<div>
<span class="ecxversiontext"><a href="http://kingjbible.com/deuteronomy/23.htm"><strong>King James
Bible</strong></a> <span class="ecxredheading"><em><strong>Deuteronomy
23</strong></em>:</span></span><BR>
<span class="ecxversiontext"><span class="ecxredheading"></span></span><br>1 He that is
wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into
the congregation of the LORD.<BR>
2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his
tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.<BR></div>
<div> </div>
<div>Suppose a male elder, deacon, or <strong>the parson himself</strong>
of some church who believed in the inerrancy of the bible was "wounded in the
stones, or hath his privy member cut off" or (male or female) was a bastard
or an issue originating with a bastard unto the tenth generation, but continued
to participate in or to lead church services in direct contravention of the
alleged words of his/her alleged god? Would that not only be sacrilegious,
but outright fraud/con artistry?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Since those unfortunates described in the KJB cite above "shall not
enter into the congregation of the LORD," should one do so then the congregation
immediately ceases to be a "congregation of the LORD." Hence, those
legitimate believers at those compromised services are unknowingly
defrauded of the alleged benefits/blessings allegedly bestowed during such
compromised services.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Repeat from below: <strong> </strong><strong>Since the alleged
heaven of the inerrant bible believers is a congregation of the LORD</strong>,
then no man so maimed as above can go to heaven. So, if the allegedly
inerrant passage cited above is true, then anyone could prevent a particular man
from going to heaven simply by executing a quick, simple operation.
<em>It follows that someone seeking revenge for being cuckolded,
<strong>especially by a male parson</strong>, could exact eternal revenge in
this manner.</em></div>
<div> </div>
<div><strong>Suppose a male parson fathers a child (or children) in an
adulterous relationship(s).</strong> Then his own offspring and their
subsequent issue unto the tenth generation could not attend church services
(which might really be a blessing) and would not be eligible for some alleged
heaven.</div>
<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Then there is the question of fundamental fairness. Most of us
believe in the ethical principle <strong>"An innocent person should not be
punished for a deed/sin/crime they did not commit."</strong></div>
<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<div>A bastard did not participate in the act which resulted in their
conception. Neither did their issue unto the tenth generation.
However, all these innocents, given the truth (inerrancy) of the KJB, are being
summarily deprived of a shot at some alleged heaven.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Is that something an alleged perfectly good god would do?</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>This discussion is about the patent absurdity of the position that the
bible is the inerrant word of some allegedly all-powerful, omniscient, perfectly
good god. If a premise results in a false conclusion, then the premise
itself is false (<em>modus tollens </em><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modus_tollens">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modus_tollens</a>).
More to the point: if a premise results in an absurdly false conclusion, then
the premise itself is absurdly false, e.g., the bible is the inerrant word
of some allegedly all-powerful, omniscient, perfectly good god. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>But if any statement in the bible is false, then it opens up the
possibility that some or all of the statements in the bible are false. How
can one separate the true from the false with any claim of authenticity?
The bible itself offers no solution or clue to the resolution of this
dilemma.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Further, the bible is touted as the handbook/manual for correct living and
achieving a reward of eternal bliss according to some alleged all-powerful,
omniscient, perfectly good god. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>However, the presence of mistakes/absurdities/errors in the bible casts
certain doubt on the all-powerfulness, omniscience, and perfected goodness of
the alleged god author. If this alleged god cannot even write a clear,
unambiguous, error free guide for living correctly and achieving eternal
bliss, how could it be expected to deliver as promised all the multitude of
fantastic promises made in the bible about eternity?</div>
<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Art Deco</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Wayne A. Fox<br>1009 Karen Lane<br>PO Box 9421<br>Moscow, ID
83843</div>
<div> </div>
<div><a href="mailto:waf@moscow.com">waf@moscow.com</a><br>208 882-7975</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-left: 5px; padding-right: 0px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;"><b>From:</b>
<a title="deco@moscow.com" href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">Art Deco</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>To:</b> <a title="vision2020@moscow.com" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">Vision 2020</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 21, 2009 1:43
PM</div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>Subject:</b> [Vision2020] A Dilemma</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><font face="Arial">Here is an interesting dilemma for those who believe
that the <em>Holy Bible</em> is the inerrant word of some allegedly
all-powerful, omniscient god.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div>
<span class="ecxversiontext"><a href="http://kingjbible.com/deuteronomy/23.htm"><font face="Arial"><strong>King
James Bible</strong></font></a><font face="Arial"> <span class="ecxredheading"><em><strong>Deuteronomy
23</strong></em>:</span></font></span><BR>
<span class="ecxversiontext"><font face="Arial"><span class="ecxredheading"></span></font></span><font face="Arial"></font><br><font face="Arial">1 He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut
off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD.</font><BR>
<font face="Arial">2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the
LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of
the LORD.</font><BR>
<font face="Arial"></font> <BR>
<font face="Arial">This allegedly inerrant pronouncement of the alleged god
claimed by the Bible Inerrants, including our local Christ Church Cult,
presents a real dilemma for them for several reasons:</font><font face="Arial"> </font><BR>
<font face="Arial">If a member loses one or both of his testicles and/or his
penis due to an operation to excise a pathological condition or due to any
other cause, then he shall not be allowed to attend church. If he does
so, the church services he attends cease to be a congregation of the
LORD. Thus, the presence of such a person nullifies the gathering and
the blessings/protections/etc such services allegedly bestow on those
present. If the parson of such a gathering knowingly and willfully
allows a such a maimed person into the congregational services, thus
nullifying it for all others, then it appears that the parson has knowingly
and willfully flouted the commands of his alleged god. Draw your own
conclusion about the alleged holiness of such a parson, especially if the
maimed person is a man of wealth generous to the church.</font><BR>
<font face="Arial"><strong>Since the alleged heaven of the inerrant bible
believers is a congregation of the LORD</strong>, then no man so maimed as
above can go to heaven. So, if the allegedly inerrant passage cited
above is true, then anyone could prevent a particular man from going to heaven
simply by executing a quick, simple operation.</font><BR>
<font face="Arial">Since no bastard and any issue begatted by such to the
tenth generation is allowed into a congregation of the LORD, then any person
meeting such a description is not only not allowed into a church service
, but is SOL from the alleged heaven. Thus, the presence of such a
person described by the second passage above in a church
service nullifies that congregational gathering and the
blessings/protections/etc it allegedly bestows on those present. If the
parson of such a gathering knowingly and willfully allows a such a person into
the congregational services, thus nullifying it for all others, then it
appears that the parson has knowingly and willfully flouted the commands of
his alleged god. Draw your own conclusion about the alleged holiness of
such a parson.</font><BR>
<font face="Arial">Note that any alleged congregational services attended by
any bastard or issue of such to the tenth generation is NOT a congregation of
the LORD according to the passages cited. I wonder if how many services
have been so nullified? Almost all, I'd guess.</font><BR>
<font face="Arial">Further, the above two passages seem to contradict the
main tenets of the alleged teachings of Christ as found in the Synoptic
Gospels, especially <em>Matthew</em> 25:31 .</font><BR>
<font face="Arial">Confronted with this bit of information, I wonder
what our local cultmaster will do. [Where money is involved, is there
any doubt?]</font><BR>
<font face="Arial">Art Deco</font><BR>
<font size="2">[Wayne A. Fox<br>1009 Karen Lane<br>PO Box 9421<br>Moscow,
ID 83843</font><BR>
<font size="2"><a href="mailto:waf@moscow.com">waf@moscow.com</a><br>208
882-7975]</font><BR>
<font face="Arial"></font> <BR></div>
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