[Vision2020] A Dilemma

Wed Sep 23 14:40:34 PDT 2009

On the contrary, I find this interesting, and think that regardless of a
person's Weltanschuang, having a correct understanding of world religions is
a very important aspect of education that everyone should pursue.  In fact,
I think world religion classes should be taught in all high schools (without
advocacy, of course), that explore the beliefs and practices of all major
religions, and even minor ones, if anyone in the high school in question
happens to follow that belief system.

Religion is a source of far too much hatred, war, violence, prejudice and
discrimination, as we all know.  Having a correct understanding of religions
can help to ameliorate some of the Pavlovian negative responses that are all
too common when someone is dealing with those who follow a religion that
might seem "alien"  Having said that, of course there will be disagreements
between religions that cannot be easily ameliorated by education, but will
result in power struggles and even violence.  No matter how much I might
attempt to understand the theology of the Taliban, this would not negate my
rejection of some of their practices, though I doubt the war in Afghanistan
against them is the correct approach.  If they harbor terrorists, go after
the terrorists, but waging war against their whole way of life and beliefs,
may not succeed in the long run.
Ted Moffett
On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 9:06 AM, keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com> wrote:

> Since Christians like myself believe that Jesus Christ is the fulfillment
> of the law, and that life in him is not life under law -- much less the
> Mosaic Law from which you quote -- your assumption that Bible-believing
> churches hold to what you describe below is false.  No Christian church that
> I know of, and no church in the mainstream (not "mainline") of evangelical
> thought and practice, would ever supplant freedom, inclusion, and
> egalitarianism in Christ with the Mosaic Law he did away with by his death
> and resurrection.  Nobody but a crazy person would consider chopping off a
> man's genitals so he couldn't go to heaven, and only someone unfamiliar with
> the Gospel and New Testament theology would suggest that.
>
> And I have to disagree on an earlier point you made about Calvinism.  While
> I am not a Calvinist, and believe there is much in that theology that's at
> odds with Scripture, Christians do not consider Calvinists aberrant or
> cultic at all -- it's an in-house disagreement that doesn't affect the
> fundamentals of the faith.  And no one in the Church rejects Calvinism
> because Calvinists don't believe that Jesus taught salvation by good works.
> Christians don't believe that he taught that; we believe in salvation by
> faith in Christ.  That salvation is evidenced by good works.  No truly
> Biblical Christian would argue that we are saved by the works we do.  We're
> saved by the works Christ did -- we're just charged to act like him in this
> world.  And too often I don't.
>
> I'm pretty sure others on Vision don't find this stuff at all interesting,
> but I'm happy to dialogue with you on my blog . . .
>
> Keely
> www.keely-prevailingwinds.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> From: deco at moscow.com
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 18:53:08 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Dilemma
>
>
> Since I sent the post below, I have received some very interesting
> information, and have had a stimulating discussion.  These gave birth to
> some further thoughts and questions with respect to:
>
> *King James Bible* <http://kingjbible.com/deuteronomy/23.htm> *Deuteronomy
> 23*:
>
> 1 He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall
> not enter into the congregation of the LORD.
> 2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his
> tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.
>
> Suppose a male elder, deacon, or *the parson himself* of some church who
> believed in the inerrancy of the bible was "wounded in the stones, or hath
> his privy member cut off" or (male or female) was a bastard or an issue
> originating with a bastard unto the tenth generation, but continued to
> participate in or to lead church services in direct contravention of the
> alleged words of his/her alleged god?  Would that not only be sacrilegious,
> but outright fraud/con artistry?
>
> Since those unfortunates described in the KJB cite above "shall not enter
> into the congregation of the LORD," should one do so then the congregation
> immediately ceases to be a "congregation of the LORD."  Hence, those
> legitimate believers at those compromised services are unknowingly defrauded
> of the alleged benefits/blessings allegedly bestowed during such compromised
> services.
>
> Repeat from below: *  **Since the alleged heaven of the inerrant bible
> believers is a congregation of the LORD*, then no man so maimed as above
> can go to heaven.  So, if the allegedly inerrant passage cited above is
> true, then anyone could prevent a particular man from going to heaven simply
> by executing a quick, simple operation.  *It follows that someone seeking
> revenge for being cuckolded, especially by a male parson, could exact
> eternal revenge in this manner.*
>
> *Suppose a male parson fathers a child (or children) in an adulterous
> relationship(s).*  Then his own offspring and their subsequent issue unto
> the tenth generation could not attend church services (which might really be
> a blessing) and would not be eligible for some alleged heaven.
>
>
> Then there is the question of fundamental fairness.  Most of us believe in
> the ethical principle *"An innocent person should not be punished for a
> deed/sin/crime they did not commit."*
>
> A bastard did not participate in the act which resulted in their
> conception.  Neither did their issue unto the tenth generation.  However,
> all these innocents, given the truth (inerrancy) of the KJB, are being
> summarily deprived of a shot at some alleged heaven.
>
> Is that something an alleged perfectly good god would do?
>
>
> This discussion is about the patent absurdity of the position that the
> bible is the inerrant word of some allegedly all-powerful, omniscient,
> perfectly good god.  If a premise results in a false conclusion, then the
> premise itself is false (*modus tollens *
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modus_tollens).  More to the point: if a
> premise results in an absurdly false conclusion, then the premise itself is
> absurdly false, e.g., the bible is the inerrant word of some allegedly
> all-powerful, omniscient, perfectly good god.
>
> But if any statement in the bible is false, then it opens up the
> possibility that some or all of the statements in the bible are false.  How
> can one separate the true from the false with any claim of authenticity?
> The bible itself offers no solution or clue to the resolution of this
> dilemma.
>
> Further, the bible is touted as the handbook/manual for correct living and
> achieving a reward of eternal bliss according to some alleged all-powerful,
> omniscient, perfectly good god.
>
> However, the presence of mistakes/absurdities/errors in the bible casts
> certain doubt on the all-powerfulness, omniscience, and perfected goodness
> of the alleged god author.  If this alleged god cannot even write a clear,
> unambiguous, error free guide for living correctly and achieving eternal
> bliss, how could it be expected to deliver as promised all the multitude of
> fantastic promises made in the bible about eternity?
>
>
> Art Deco
>
> Wayne A. Fox
> 1009 Karen Lane
> PO Box 9421
> Moscow, ID  83843
>
> waf at moscow.com
> 208 882-7975
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Art Deco <deco at moscow.com>
> *To:* Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, September 21, 2009 1:43 PM
> *Subject:* [Vision2020] A Dilemma
>
> Here is an interesting dilemma for those who believe that the *Holy Bible*is the inerrant word of some allegedly all-powerful, omniscient god.
>
> *King James Bible* <http://kingjbible.com/deuteronomy/23.htm> *Deuteronomy
> 23*:
>
> 1 He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall
> not enter into the congregation of the LORD.
> 2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his
> tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.
>
> This allegedly inerrant pronouncement of the alleged god claimed by  the
> Bible Inerrants, including our local Christ Church Cult, presents a real
> dilemma for them for several reasons:
> If a member loses one or both of his testicles and/or his penis due to an
> operation to excise a pathological condition or due to any other cause, then
> he shall not be allowed to attend church.  If he does so, the church
> services he attends cease to be a congregation of the LORD.  Thus, the
> presence of such a person nullifies the gathering and the
> blessings/protections/etc such services allegedly bestow on those present.
> If the parson of such a gathering knowingly and willfully allows a such a
> maimed person into the congregational services, thus nullifying it for all
> others, then it appears that the parson has knowingly and willfully flouted
> the commands of his alleged god.  Draw your own conclusion about the alleged
> holiness of such a parson, especially if the maimed person is a man of
> wealth generous to the church.
> *Since the alleged heaven of the inerrant bible believers is a
> congregation of the LORD*, then no man so maimed as above can go to
> heaven.  So, if the allegedly inerrant passage cited above is true, then
> anyone could prevent a particular man from going to heaven simply by
> executing a quick, simple operation.
> Since no bastard and any issue begatted by such to the tenth generation is
> allowed into a congregation of the LORD, then any person meeting such a
> description is not only not allowed into a church service , but is SOL from
> the alleged heaven.  Thus, the presence of such a person described by the
> second passage above in a church service nullifies that congregational
> gathering and the blessings/protections/etc it allegedly bestows on those
> present.  If the parson of such a gathering knowingly and willfully allows a
> such a person into the congregational services, thus nullifying it for all
> others, then it appears that the parson has knowingly and willfully flouted
> the commands of his alleged god.  Draw your own conclusion about the alleged
> holiness of such a parson.
> Note that any alleged congregational services attended by any bastard or
> issue of such to the tenth generation is NOT a congregation of the LORD
> according to the passages cited.  I wonder if how many services have been so
> nullified?  Almost all, I'd guess.
> Further, the above two passages seem to contradict the main tenets of the
> alleged teachings of Christ as found in the Synoptic Gospels, especially *
> Matthew* 25:31 .
> Confronted with this bit of information, I wonder what our local cultmaster
> will do.  [Where money is involved, is there any doubt?]
> Art Deco
> [Wayne A. Fox
> 1009 Karen Lane
> PO Box 9421
> Moscow, ID  83843
> waf at moscow.com
> 208 882-7975]
>
>
> ------------------------------
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