[Vision2020] 'Obama Tags' Called a Joke

Tue Sep 1 08:51:24 PDT 2009

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 7:17 AM, g. crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:

>  Truth be told, I don't much care about "vague threats" one way or the
> other. I believe in the first amendment protection of free speech even if
> it's distasteful or inflammatory to some. I don't believe that for one group
> it's "the highest form of patriotism" and for another it's "hate speech."
> Stupid and ill-considered remarks are an equal right not a "two wrongs don't
> make a right" as one of our more deranged posters has suggested.
>

There we go. That's more like what I was looking for. I had another
question: do I really seem like a Code Pink puppeteer to you? Do I really
seem like I think that's a good idea?

> I am going to have to take your word for the beliefs of "AR-15 toting
> dude"  and friends. As you probably know, I disagree with most of what you
> claim they profess. That said, I don't think that exercising a protected
> right qualifies as a vague threat. Arizona, along with Idaho are open carry
> states and as such what AR15td was doing was completely legal. If that makes
> someone "uncomfortable" or scared that is their right as well. Americans are
> entitled to their feelings. I find your attitude in this regard strange
> however. This (Idaho) being a concealed carry state as well as open, the
> number of firearms that surround you on a daily basis is rather large.
> Every major group you are among contains dozens of lethal pieces of
> hardware. Do you find this debilitating?
>

Absolutely not. Guns don't bug me.

It's not the guy at Wendys eating a cheeseburger and carrying a pistol that
bothers me. It's the guy with an assault rifle and a sign about watering the
tree of liberty with the blood of patriots and tyrants. He's walking around
with a sign expressing the need to kill some people and a weapon expressly
designed for same. On top of that, he seems to think that carrying a gun is
worth the risk of having some twitchy Secret Service dude constantly aiming
a gun at him, and getting shot if it even vaguely looks like he's going to
discharge it. I'm a little sketchy, then, about his sense of
self-preservation, and, consequently, his sense of me-preservation.

Though I'm obviously of ultra-manly constitution, I think it's merely good
common sense not to make any loud noises around a man with a loaded gun and
poor judgment. I suspect that's part of his deal: his mere presence ensures
good behavior, insofar as he defines "good behavior" as no loud liberals.

-- ACS

>
> So, your qualms in order. Where you feel "comfortable" is a purely personal
> concern. It is not the responsibility of others. Speaking strictly for
> myself, tie dye and the public display of hacky sacks makes me a little
> queasy but I suck it up and deal.
>
> Second and third, the waste of resources issue is a non-starter. The SS and
> law enforcement is there anyway and the way the government wastes resources,
> this doesn't even amount to a tiny portion of a drop in the bucket. If this
> is truly a concern for you, a better, easier, and cheaper solution would be
> for you to insist that the president stay in the whitehouse and try to
> accomplish something useful and stop with the 24/7/365 campaign for
> adulation.
>
>
> Your fourth and final point I don't really understand. Are you suggesting
> that police and responsible firearms owners will suddenly become unhinged
> and commence with a recreation of the OK corral? That the guns will suddenly
> develop a mind of their own (shades of the dumbest of Steven King's pap) and
> turn on their owners? Or are you suggesting, as a great many of those with
> your "strong and contrary beliefs" do, that one group of peoples rights
> should be taken away to cover for some vague and unlikely possibility and to
> make another group a little more at ease?
>
> g
>
> *From:* Andreas Schou <ophite at gmail.com>
> *To:* g. crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> *Cc:* Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, August 31, 2009 8:17 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] 'Obama Tags' Called a Joke
>
> Gary --
>
> I'm just not sure on your position here. Do you think people should be
> making vague threats against the President or not? Or are you just accusing
> the liberals here of being hypocrites without taking a position yourself?
>
> Here's your way out. I'm a little confused as to why you didn't take it:
>
> These aren't my people; I'm not responsible for them. They're crazy; I'm
> not. The assault rifle guys are from the We The People Foundation, which is
> an advocacy organization for tax protesters. They're also birthers. They
> print their own money. They want to return to the gold standard. They
> believe the Venezuelan government stole the last US election by tampering
> with US voting machines. They bear little, if any, relationship to you -- by
> which I mean, "the near side of the far right." I find some of your beliefs
> distasteful; however, I find them comprehensible. Not so much with these
> lunatics.
>
> I also mentioned that I found the protester with the AR-15 a little scary.
>
> He showed up at a Presidential rally toting an assault rifle. His pastor's
> praying for Obama's death. He won't disavow an intent to kill the President
> while being interviewed on television,. His buddy showed up with a rifle and
> a threatening sign at the New Hampshire rally. There's a difference between
> a vague threat delivered by a puppet-wielding sociology undergrad across the
> country and a threat delivered by a militia gunman a block away.
>
> Neither, you might note, is likely to actually to kill the President.
> That's not, however, what I'm worried about. First, I have a lot of strong
> and contrary political beliefs. I'm uncomfortable expressing them with my
> back to military-grade firearms. I think this is reasonable. Second, an
> armed and licensed person a block away from the President is a waste of
> resources, given that it's probably a good idea to keep a Secret Service
> sniper on him at all times. Third, keeping a Secret Service sniper on fifty
> gun-toting militia members is a logistical nightmare, and there appears to
> be no good way to prevent fifty gun-toting idiots from showing up. Fourth,
> the introduction of firearms to a situation with a lot of shouting and
> pushing, threatening signs, twitchy cops, and security cordons is an awful
> idea. Someone will get hurt. It is unlikely to be Obama, but that doesn't
> mean I don't care.
>
> -- ACS
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 5:59 PM, g. crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com>wrote:
>
>>  It seems to me that you and campbell are in a neck and neck competition
>> to post the most addled response to my pointing out yet another spot of
>> hypocrisy with regard to the Rammell quip. Fortunately for you, past
>> experience indicates that the man with a fallacy for all seasons will always
>> ultimately win out in competitions such as this. Just for fun however, why
>> don't you expound a moment upon why "AR-15 toting dude" gives you the vapors
>> and provide an instance or two of my attempts to "claim" him. Who knows,
>> with enough breathless hyperbole, disjointed prose, and outright disregard
>> for truthfulness you might just give the pedantic perfesser a run for his
>> money!
>>
>> g
>>
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* Andreas Schou <ophite at gmail.com>
>>  *To:* the lockshop <lockshop at pull.twcbc.com>
>> *Cc:* Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> *Sent:* Monday, August 31, 2009 11:10 AM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] 'Obama Tags' Called a Joke
>>
>>  Gary --
>>
>> Incidentally, I'm more concerned about things like the AR-15-toting dude
>> showing up to the Obama rally while refusing to disavow calling for Obama's
>> assassination. Rex Rammel is a national joke who can't keep his mouth shut.
>> This guy... less so. And, incidentally, Gary, since he's a member of the
>> Libertarian party and a militia crank, I don't think he's "yours," except
>> insofar as you try to keep claiming him.
>>
>> -- ACS
>>
>> For those of you that haven't seen the follow-up:
>> http://www.abc15.com/content/news/southeastvalley/tempe/story/Tempe-pastor-reiterates-wish-for-President-Obamas/MX2Vzd4unEi9n8PschT50w.cspxu
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
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>
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