[Vision2020] 'Obama Tags' Called a Joke

Tue Sep 1 19:45:09 PDT 2009

Puppeteer? I would never have thought THAT ill of you. However I might have had you pegged as sympathetic to Code Pink. I also might have imagined that you were down with HCI, the Brady campaign, and the so called assault weapons ban. I'm pleasantly surprised to be wrong.

You are correct that your testosterone pumped presence comes through loud and clear in your every post but, it seems a mite presumptuous to expect one group of crazies (gun toters) to accede to the desires for comfort of another group of crazies (puppeteers and anti-corporate window breakers and stone throwers) Since neither your presence nor mine is required at any of these soirees why don't we compromise, boycott the events, and meet me at the nearest bar where I will attempt to do grievous damage to your liver. The crazies deserve one another and the philosophy department can tell us all about any excitement we may have missed.

g
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Andreas Schou 
  To: g. crabtree 
  Cc: Moscow Vision 2020 
  Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 8:51 AM
  Subject: Re: [Vision2020] 'Obama Tags' Called a Joke

  On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 7:17 AM, g. crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:

    Truth be told, I don't much care about "vague threats" one way or the other. I believe in the first amendment protection of free speech even if it's distasteful or inflammatory to some. I don't believe that for one group it's "the highest form of patriotism" and for another it's "hate speech." Stupid and ill-considered remarks are an equal right not a "two wrongs don't make a right" as one of our more deranged posters has suggested.

  There we go. That's more like what I was looking for. I had another question: do I really seem like a Code Pink puppeteer to you? Do I really seem like I think that's a good idea?

    I am going to have to take your word for the beliefs of "AR-15 toting dude"  and friends. As you probably know, I disagree with most of what you claim they profess. That said, I don't think that exercising a protected right qualifies as a vague threat. Arizona, along with Idaho are open carry states and as such what AR15td was doing was completely legal. If that makes someone "uncomfortable" or scared that is their right as well. Americans are entitled to their feelings. I find your attitude in this regard strange however. This (Idaho) being a concealed carry state as well as open, the number of firearms that surround you on a daily basis is rather large. Every major group you are among contains dozens of lethal pieces of hardware. Do you find this debilitating?

  Absolutely not. Guns don't bug me.

  It's not the guy at Wendys eating a cheeseburger and carrying a pistol that bothers me. It's the guy with an assault rifle and a sign about watering the tree of liberty with the blood of patriots and tyrants. He's walking around with a sign expressing the need to kill some people and a weapon expressly designed for same. On top of that, he seems to think that carrying a gun is worth the risk of having some twitchy Secret Service dude constantly aiming a gun at him, and getting shot if it even vaguely looks like he's going to discharge it. I'm a little sketchy, then, about his sense of self-preservation, and, consequently, his sense of me-preservation.

  Though I'm obviously of ultra-manly constitution, I think it's merely good common sense not to make any loud noises around a man with a loaded gun and poor judgment. I suspect that's part of his deal: his mere presence ensures good behavior, insofar as he defines "good behavior" as no loud liberals.

  -- ACS

    So, your qualms in order. Where you feel "comfortable" is a purely personal concern. It is not the responsibility of others. Speaking strictly for myself, tie dye and the public display of hacky sacks makes me a little queasy but I suck it up and deal.

    Second and third, the waste of resources issue is a non-starter. The SS and law enforcement is there anyway and the way the government wastes resources, this doesn't even amount to a tiny portion of a drop in the bucket. If this is truly a concern for you, a better, easier, and cheaper solution would be for you to insist that the president stay in the whitehouse and try to accomplish something useful and stop with the 24/7/365 campaign for adulation.

    Your fourth and final point I don't really understand. Are you suggesting that police and responsible firearms owners will suddenly become unhinged and commence with a recreation of the OK corral? That the guns will suddenly develop a mind of their own (shades of the dumbest of Steven King's pap) and turn on their owners? Or are you suggesting, as a great many of those with your "strong and contrary beliefs" do, that one group of peoples rights should be taken away to cover for some vague and unlikely possibility and to make another group a little more at ease?

    g
      From: Andreas Schou 
      To: g. crabtree 
      Cc: Moscow Vision 2020 
      Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 8:17 PM
      Subject: Re: [Vision2020] 'Obama Tags' Called a Joke

      Gary --

      I'm just not sure on your position here. Do you think people should be making vague threats against the President or not? Or are you just accusing the liberals here of being hypocrites without taking a position yourself?

      Here's your way out. I'm a little confused as to why you didn't take it: 

      These aren't my people; I'm not responsible for them. They're crazy; I'm not. The assault rifle guys are from the We The People Foundation, which is an advocacy organization for tax protesters. They're also birthers. They print their own money. They want to return to the gold standard. They believe the Venezuelan government stole the last US election by tampering with US voting machines. They bear little, if any, relationship to you -- by which I mean, "the near side of the far right." I find some of your beliefs distasteful; however, I find them comprehensible. Not so much with these lunatics.

      I also mentioned that I found the protester with the AR-15 a little scary. 

      He showed up at a Presidential rally toting an assault rifle. His pastor's praying for Obama's death. He won't disavow an intent to kill the President while being interviewed on television,. His buddy showed up with a rifle and a threatening sign at the New Hampshire rally. There's a difference between a vague threat delivered by a puppet-wielding sociology undergrad across the country and a threat delivered by a militia gunman a block away.  

      Neither, you might note, is likely to actually to kill the President. That's not, however, what I'm worried about. First, I have a lot of strong and contrary political beliefs. I'm uncomfortable expressing them with my back to military-grade firearms. I think this is reasonable. Second, an armed and licensed person a block away from the President is a waste of resources, given that it's probably a good idea to keep a Secret Service sniper on him at all times. Third, keeping a Secret Service sniper on fifty gun-toting militia members is a logistical nightmare, and there appears to be no good way to prevent fifty gun-toting idiots from showing up. Fourth, the introduction of firearms to a situation with a lot of shouting and pushing, threatening signs, twitchy cops, and security cordons is an awful idea. Someone will get hurt. It is unlikely to be Obama, but that doesn't mean I don't care.

      -- ACS

      On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 5:59 PM, g. crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:

        It seems to me that you and campbell are in a neck and neck competition to post the most addled response to my pointing out yet another spot of hypocrisy with regard to the Rammell quip. Fortunately for you, past experience indicates that the man with a fallacy for all seasons will always ultimately win out in competitions such as this. Just for fun however, why don't you expound a moment upon why "AR-15 toting dude" gives you the vapors and provide an instance or two of my attempts to "claim" him. Who knows, with enough breathless hyperbole, disjointed prose, and outright disregard for truthfulness you might just give the pedantic perfesser a run for his money!

        g
          ----- Original Message ----- 
          From: Andreas Schou 
          To: the lockshop 
          Cc: Moscow Vision 2020 
          Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 11:10 AM
          Subject: Re: [Vision2020] 'Obama Tags' Called a Joke

          Gary --

          Incidentally, I'm more concerned about things like the AR-15-toting dude showing up to the Obama rally while refusing to disavow calling for Obama's assassination. Rex Rammel is a national joke who can't keep his mouth shut. This guy... less so. And, incidentally, Gary, since he's a member of the Libertarian party and a militia crank, I don't think he's "yours," except insofar as you try to keep claiming him.

          -- ACS

          For those of you that haven't seen the follow-up: http://www.abc15.com/content/news/southeastvalley/tempe/story/Tempe-pastor-reiterates-wish-for-President-Obamas/MX2Vzd4unEi9n8PschT50w.cspxu 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

          =======================================================
           List services made available by First Step Internet, 
           serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.   
                         http://www.fsr.net                       
                    mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
          =======================================================

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20090901/bb70d7c7/attachment-0001.html 