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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Puppeteer? I would never have
thought THAT ill of you. However I might have had you pegged as sympathetic
to Code Pink. I also might have imagined that you were down with HCI, the Brady
campaign, and the so called assault weapons ban. I'm pleasantly surprised to be
wrong.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>You are correct that your testosterone pumped
presence comes through loud and clear in your every post but, it seems a mite
presumptuous to expect one group of crazies (gun toters) to accede to the
desires for comfort of another group of crazies (puppeteers and anti-corporate
window breakers and stone throwers) Since neither your presence nor mine is
required at any of these soirees why don't we compromise, boycott the events,
and meet me at the nearest bar where I will attempt to do grievous damage
to your liver. The crazies deserve one another and the philosophy
department can tell us all about any excitement we may have
missed.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>g</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ophite@gmail.com href="mailto:ophite@gmail.com">Andreas Schou</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=jampot@roadrunner.com
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">g. crabtree</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">Moscow Vision 2020</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 01, 2009 8:51
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] 'Obama Tags'
Called a Joke</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 7:17 AM, g. crabtree <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">jampot@roadrunner.com</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV bgcolor="#ffffff">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Truth be told, I don't much care about "vague
threats" one way or the other. I believe in the first amendment protection
of free speech even if it's distasteful or inflammatory to some. I don't
believe that for one group it's "the highest form of patriotism" and for
another it's "hate speech." Stupid and ill-considered remarks are an equal
right not a "two wrongs don't make a right" as one of our more deranged
posters has suggested.</FONT></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR>There we go. That's more like what I was looking for. I had another
question: do I really seem like a Code Pink puppeteer to you? Do I really seem
like I think that's a good idea?<BR> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV bgcolor="#ffffff">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I am going to have to take your word for the
beliefs of "AR-15 toting dude" and friends. As you probably
know, I disagree with most of what you claim they profess. That said, I
don't think that exercising a protected right qualifies as a vague threat.
Arizona, along with Idaho are open carry states and as such what AR15td was
doing was completely legal. If that makes someone "uncomfortable" or scared
that is their right as well. Americans are entitled to their feelings. I
find your attitude in this regard strange however. This (Idaho) being a
concealed carry state as well as open, the number of firearms that surround
you on a daily basis is rather large. Every major group you are among
contains dozens of lethal pieces of hardware. Do you find this
debilitating?</FONT></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR>Absolutely not. Guns don't bug me.<BR><BR>It's not the guy at Wendys
eating a cheeseburger and carrying a pistol that bothers me. It's the guy with
an assault rifle and a sign about watering the tree of liberty with the blood
of patriots and tyrants. He's walking around with a sign expressing the need
to kill some people and a weapon expressly designed for same. On top of that,
he seems to think that carrying a gun is worth the risk of having some twitchy
Secret Service dude constantly aiming a gun at him, and getting shot if it
even vaguely looks like he's going to discharge it. I'm a little sketchy,
then, about his sense of self-preservation, and, consequently, his sense of
me-preservation.<BR><BR>Though I'm obviously of ultra-manly constitution, I
think it's merely good common sense not to make any loud noises around a man
with a loaded gun and poor judgment. I suspect that's part of his deal: his
mere presence ensures good behavior, insofar as he defines "good behavior" as
no loud liberals.<BR><BR>-- ACS<BR> <BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV bgcolor="#ffffff">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>So, your qualms in order. Where you feel
"comfortable" is a purely personal concern. It is not the responsibility of
others. Speaking strictly for myself, tie dye and the public display
of hacky sacks makes me a little queasy but I suck it up and
deal.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Second and third, the waste of resources
issue is a non-starter. The SS and law enforcement is there anyway and the
way the government wastes resources, this doesn't even amount to a tiny
portion of a drop in the bucket. If this is truly a concern for you, a
better, easier, and cheaper solution would be for you to insist that
the president stay in the whitehouse and try to accomplish something useful
and stop with the 24/7/365 campaign for adulation.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Your fourth and final point I don't really
understand. Are you suggesting that police and responsible firearms owners
will suddenly become unhinged and commence with a recreation of the OK
corral? That the guns will suddenly develop a mind of their own (shades of
the dumbest of Steven King's pap) and turn on their owners? Or are you
suggesting, as a great many of those with your "strong and contrary beliefs"
do, that one group of peoples rights should be taken away to cover for some
vague and unlikely possibility and to make another group a little more at
ease?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>g</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228); FONT: 10pt arial; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ophite@gmail.com href="mailto:ophite@gmail.com"
target=_blank>Andreas Schou</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>To:</B>
<A title=jampot@roadrunner.com href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"
target=_blank>g. crabtree</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Cc:</B>
<A title=vision2020@moscow.com href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"
target=_blank>Moscow Vision 2020</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Sent:</B>
Monday, August 31, 2009 8:17 PM</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=h5>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [Vision2020] 'Obama Tags' Called a Joke</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Gary --<BR><BR>I'm just not sure on your position here. Do
you think people should be making vague threats against the President or
not? Or are you just accusing the liberals here of being hypocrites
without taking a position yourself?<BR><BR>Here's your way out. I'm a
little confused as to why you didn't take it: <BR><BR>These aren't my
people; I'm not responsible for them. They're crazy; I'm not. The assault
rifle guys are from the We The People Foundation, which is an advocacy
organization for tax protesters. They're also birthers. They print their
own money. They want to return to the gold standard. They believe the
Venezuelan government stole the last US election by tampering with US
voting machines. They bear little, if any, relationship to you -- by which
I mean, "the near side of the far right." I find some of your beliefs
distasteful; however, I find them comprehensible. Not so much with these
lunatics.<BR><BR>I also mentioned that I found the protester with the
AR-15 a little scary. <BR><BR>He showed up at a Presidential rally toting
an assault rifle. His pastor's praying for Obama's death. He won't disavow
an intent to kill the President while being interviewed on television,.
His buddy showed up with a rifle and a threatening sign at the New
Hampshire rally. There's a difference between a vague threat delivered by
a puppet-wielding sociology undergrad across the country and a threat
delivered by a militia gunman a block away. <BR><BR>Neither, you
might note, is likely to actually to kill the President. That's not,
however, what I'm worried about. First, I have a lot of strong and
contrary political beliefs. I'm uncomfortable expressing them with my back
to military-grade firearms. I think this is reasonable. Second, an armed
and licensed person a block away from the President is a waste of
resources, given that it's probably a good idea to keep a Secret Service
sniper on him at all times. Third, keeping a Secret Service sniper on
fifty gun-toting militia members is a logistical nightmare, and there
appears to be no good way to prevent fifty gun-toting idiots from showing
up. Fourth, the introduction of firearms to a situation with a lot of
shouting and pushing, threatening signs, twitchy cops, and security
cordons is an awful idea. Someone will get hurt. It is unlikely to be
Obama, but that doesn't mean I don't care.<BR><BR>-- ACS<BR><BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 5:59 PM, g. crabtree <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"
target=_blank>jampot@roadrunner.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV bgcolor="#ffffff">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>It seems to me that you and campbell are in
a neck and neck competition to post the most addled response to my
pointing out yet another spot of hypocrisy with regard to the
Rammell quip. Fortunately for you, past experience indicates that the
man with a fallacy for all seasons will always ultimately win out in
competitions such as this. Just for fun however, why don't you expound a
moment upon why "AR-15 toting dude" gives you the vapors and provide an
instance or two of my attempts to "claim" him. Who knows, with enough
breathless hyperbole, disjointed prose, and outright disregard for
truthfulness you might just give the pedantic perfesser a run for his
money!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV><FONT color=#888888>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>g</FONT></DIV></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228); FONT: 10pt arial; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ophite@gmail.com href="mailto:ophite@gmail.com"
target=_blank>Andreas Schou</A> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>To:</B>
<A title=lockshop@pull.twcbc.com href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com"
target=_blank>the lockshop</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Cc:</B>
<A title=vision2020@moscow.com href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"
target=_blank>Moscow Vision 2020</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Sent:</B>
Monday, August 31, 2009 11:10 AM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [Vision2020] 'Obama Tags' Called a Joke</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Gary --<BR><BR>Incidentally, I'm more concerned about things like
the AR-15-toting dude showing up to the Obama rally while refusing to
disavow calling for Obama's assassination. Rex Rammel is a national
joke who can't keep his mouth shut. This guy... less so. And,
incidentally, Gary, since he's a member of the Libertarian party and a
militia crank, I don't think he's "yours," except insofar as you try
to keep claiming him.<BR><BR>-- ACS<BR><BR>For those of you that
haven't seen the follow-up: <A
href="http://www.abc15.com/content/news/southeastvalley/tempe/story/Tempe-pastor-reiterates-wish-for-President-Obamas/MX2Vzd4unEi9n8PschT50w.cspxu"
target=_blank>http://www.abc15.com/content/news/southeastvalley/tempe/story/Tempe-pastor-reiterates-wish-for-President-Obamas/MX2Vzd4unEi9n8PschT50w.cspxu</A>
<BR></DIV></DIV>
<P></P>
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