[Vision2020] Failed Drug Policies from Nixon to Bush

Donovan Arnold donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Mon Mar 2 13:14:13 PST 2009


Tom,

You need to check your science book. There is a big difference between sneaking a sip of alcohol and snorting a line of cocaine.  If you think we have problems with alcohol, wait until you see the effects of your avocation for legalizing crack. 

Best Regards,

Donovan

--- On Mon, 3/2/09, Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> wrote:
From: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Failed Drug Policies from Nixon to Bush
To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com, "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>, "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>, "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com>
Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 5:32 AM

No more than alcohol, Arnold.

If you check out your history books, you will find that the bad guys made 
BIG duckets ($) from the illegal transport and sale of alcohol.  The 18th 
Amendment (you know?  That one that done did away with the Prohibition) 
got rid of them there speak-easies and illegal taverns, thusly making it 
legal to transport, sell, and consume alcohol.  But only if you were above 
a certain age and that the alkeehall that you done drunk was previously 
taxed (along with a whole bunch of other rules that fit snuggly under the 
gubmint label of "regulation").

Now, what's this about lowering the drinking age to 18?  Instead of 18 
year-olds copping phoney IDs, you'll have 15 year-olds copping phoney IDs.

Cheers, Moscow.

Tom "who's still tryin' to pass himself off as 21" Hansen
Moscow, Idaho


> Tom,
> 
> What makes you think that our government would be successful in its
regulat> ion of drugs if it were to make them legal? What liability would 
our
govern> ment have if it said it was OK to use cocaine, heroin, or meth? 
How would
y> ou make sure its increased availability would be kept out of the hands 
of
y> outh? 
> 
> What sort of influence do you think producers of exotic, expensive, and
hig> hly addictive drugs would have on our legal system, legislature, and
member> s of congress if they were legal? 
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Donovan
> 
>  
> 
> --- On Sun, 3/1/09, Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> wrote:
> From: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Failed Drug Policies from Nixon to Bush
> To: "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>,
"vision 2020"
<vision> 2020 at moscow.com>
> Date: Sunday, March 1, 2009, 6:17 PM
> 
> Thanks for mentioning that, Sunil.
> 
> I was about to suggest that, in order to "control" the use/sale
of
> illicit 
> drugs, there are only two options that have shown any effectiveness . . .
> 
> 1)  In some countries, use and/or sale of illicit drugs is punishible by 
> death.  In some countries a trial isn't even necessary.  I do not, in 
> ABSOLUTELY any fashion, support this option and do not foresee our 
> legislature adopting it.
> 
> 2)  Legalize and regulate the use and/or sale of illicit drugs. 
Although>  
> I support this option in relation to most drugs, inacting such
legislation>  
> is open for debate.
> 
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
> 
> > 
> > I don't think there are any policies that would accomplish what
you
> want
> to>  do, so I don't have any suggestions.  I think that effort is a
> waste 
> of
> > time, energy, and money.
> > 
> > I would decriminalize drugs instead and reduce the price.  
> > 
> > Sunil
> > Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 17:41:33 -0800
> > From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Failed Drug Policies from Nixon to Bush
> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com; sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
> > 
> > OK Suninstein,
> > 
> > It is easy to be an critic. What policies would you create that would

be
> di> fferent, effective, and reduce the number of users of cocaine users
> fro> m less than 1% to a minuscule number of the population?
> > 
> > Best Regards,
> > 
> > Donovan
> > 
> > --- On Sun, 3/1/09, Sunil Ramalingam
<sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> wrot> e:
> > From: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Failed Drug Policies from Nixon to Bush
> > To: "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > Date: Sunday, March 1, 2009, 5:04 PM
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Donovan,
> > 
> > I disagree.
> > 
> > Our drug laws stand as a monument to our official inability to
recognize>  
> a
> > simple truth about people: That we (not all us us, but enough) like
to
> us> e substances that affect our consciousness.  Some religions ban
this,
> man> y states do, but people still want to do it.
> > 
> > We are spending a ridiculous amount of money fighting human nature,
and
> i> t isn't working. Because it's illegal it's more
expensive,
> and there's
> en> ough money in it to make people take enormous risks.
> > 
> > It's long been time to take a different approach. Our current one
is a
> fail> ure.
> > 
> > Sunil
> > 
> > Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 16:44:15 -0800
> > From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Failed Drug Policies from Nixon to Bush
> > To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
> > 
> > Sunil,
> > 
> > I agree with you that we need to help people with their problems and 
not
> us> e drugs as a solution, I think you are wrong on the supply side. 
> > 
> > The fact that the drug dealers are having to smuggle the cocaine over

the
> b> oarder, is very indicative that the American people have rejected
this
> pr> oduct. We have spent billions on stopping it, and it is illegal in 
> every
> > state and county in the country. That seems like a pretty
overwhelming
> reje> ction of the drug. Less than one percent of the population uses
it.>  
> > 
> > The demand was created by "pushers" illegally as well, and
the
> illegal
> an> d dangerous addictiveness of the product is what also keeps the 
> demand. We
> > didn't create the demand, the demand was created for us.
> > 
> > Best Regards,
> > 
> > Donovan
> > 
> > 
> > --- On Sun, 3/1/09, Sunil Ramalingam
> >  <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> >  wrote:
> > From: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Failed Drug Policies from Nixon to Bush
> > To: "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > Date: Sunday, March 1, 2009, 8:48 AM
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Donovan,
> > 
> > I think your premise is wrong.  No one is forcing drugs on Americans.
 
WE
> h> ave created the demand.  It is a DEMAND problem, not a supply
problem.
> > 
> > Sunil
> > 
> > Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 22:06:05 -0800
> > From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Failed Drug Policies from Nixon to Bush
> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com; sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
> > 
> > Sunil,
> > 
> > I took your question in a broader context.
> > 
> > If the US was forcing cocaine into the a South America and creating
> violenc> e and death in their streets, yes, they would have the right
to
> destroy>  the crops in the US, or at least try to. 
> > 
> > Best
> >  Regards,
> > 
> > Donovan
> > 
> > --- On Sat, 2/28/09, Sunil Ramalingam
<sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> wro> te:
> > From: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Failed Drug Policies from Nixon to Bush
> > To: "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > Date: Saturday, February 28, 2009, 3:07 PM
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Yes, Donovan, I missed the event when Central and South Americans
> attac> ked the biggest things in New York.
> > 
> > 9/11, you say? My, that's one big cover-up if they were involved.
> > 
> > At any rate, my question remains the same.  Do our actions give our
> victi> ms the right to bomb us?  If no, why not?
> > 
> > Sunil
> > 
> > Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 23:47:50 -0800
> > From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Failed Drug Policies from Nixon to Bush
> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com; sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
> > 
> > Sunil
> > 
> > They do blow "things" up here. In fact, they took out the
two
> biggest
> thi> ngs in the biggest city. Perhaps you missed that
> >  whole 9/11 thingy.
> > 
> > Best Regards,
> > 
> > Donovan
> > 
> > --- On Fri, 2/27/09, Sunil Ramalingam
<sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> wro> te:
> > From: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Failed Drug Policies from Nixon to Bush
> > To: "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > Date: Friday, February 27, 2009, 6:28 PM
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Donovan,
> > 
> > Do the people we bomb have the right to try to blow up things here? 
If
> not> , why?
> > 
> > Sunil
> > 
> > Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:07:14 -0800
> > From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com; nickgier at roadrunner.com
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Failed Drug Policies from Nixon to Bush
> > 
> > What Nick doesn't realize is that it isn't the
government's 
> responsibility
> > to keep people off drugs. That is the responsibility of the
individual.
> Onl> y you can decide not to use drugs and take responsibility for your
> behavior>  and decisions to use or not use drugs, and what you put in
your>  
> body.
> > 
> > The government has made it clear to
> >  anyone who will listen from 5 years old to 105 years old, DON'T
USE
> DRUG> S. That is all they can do. They provide information to people
for 
> free,
> > and they offer free drug counseling, and help with getting off drug
> addic> tion. 
> > 
> > I use to drink heavily, and smoke up to three packs of cigarettes a
> day> , and I will not talk about anything else I did because this is a 
> public
> > forum. But it was me, and me alone, that had the power to decide to
> use>  and stop using products abusive to my body. 
> > 
> > People think it is
> >  the responsibility of the government to do things for you. It is
not. 
If
> p> eople want to use drugs, they will. If they want to get off drugs,
> they>  will.
> > 
> > I as a taxpayer can only do so much, and refuse to take blame for the
> per> sonal decisions that people make with full knowledge of their
actions>  
> and
> b> ehaviors. 
> > 
> > The Government didn't fail with drugs, only people that decided
not to
> ge> t off drugs fail. Only people that refuse to take personal 
> responsibility
> a> re the ones that fail. 
> > 
> > And who really gives a damn if bombing cocaine fields in South
America
> make> s other nations mad. These people are doing wrong, and the US has

> every
> r> ight to protect themselves from people trying to do harm to our 
> citizens. 
> > 
> > Best Regards,
> > Donovan
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- On Fri, 2/27/09, nickgier at roadrunner.com
> <nickgier at roadrunner.com>
> > wrote:
> > From: nickgier at roadrunner.com
> >  <nickgier at roadrunner.com>
> > Subject: [Vision2020] Failed Drug Policies from Nixon to Bush
> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > Date: Friday, February 27, 2009, 8:51 AM
> > 
> > Good Morning Visionaries:
> > 
> > This is my radio commentary/column for this week. I had Ted Moffett 
and a
> > friend who's an expert in this area look this over before I
polished
> off
> th> e
> > rough draft.  
> > 
> > Ted suggested that I add the abuse of pharmaceuticals but the long 
> version
> > was
> > already approaching 2,000 words.  Besides Ted has already posted some

of
> > the
> > material here on the vision. Thanks, Ted, for your research which is
> th> e best on
> > the Vision on all the topics you cover.
> > 
> > I just saw "Nixon/Frost" at the Kenworthy and I had to
admit
> that I
> > began to empathize with the most despised of all presidents, but 
perhaps
> > that
> > was because of the superb acting of Frank
> >  Langella.
> > 
> > The group Law
> > 
> > 
> >  Enforcement
> >  Against Prohibition (LEAP)has an excellent video at
> > <www.leap.cc/cms/index.php?name=Content&pid=28>.
> > 
> > Nick Gier
> > 
> > DRUG POLICY FAILURES FROM NIXON TO BUSH
> > 
> > By Nick Gier
> > 
> > Every one of the bastards that are out for legalizing marijuana is
> Jewish.>  
> > What the Christ is the matter with the Jews, Bob?
> > --Richard M. Nixon to Robert Haldeman
> > 
> > Nixon is the first post-war president to declare war on drugs.  He
was
> > determined to enforce a policy that placed marijuana in the same 
category
> a> s
> > heroin. In the early days of Nixon's war, a person caught with
any
> amount>  of
> > marijuana could be sentenced to seven years in prison.
> > 
> > In 1971 Nixon appointed Pennsylvania Gov. Ray Shafer to chair the 
> National
> > Commission on Marijuana and Drug Abuse, which unexpectedly
recommended
> th> at pot
> > possession be decriminalized.  Always coarse and obscene, Nixon
lashed
> ou> t
> >  at
> > members of the
> > 
> >  Commission
> >  calling them
> >  "bastards" and
> > "Jews."
> > 
> > Since the day Nixon rejected the recommendations of the Shafer
> Commission> ,
> > fifteen million Americans have been arrested for marijuana charges
(88
> perc> ent
> > for possession only), but pot dealing and smoking continue unabated.
> Sinc> e 1980
> > the number of drug offenders incarcerated by states increased from 6
> percen> t to
> > 21 percent and those in federal prisons went from 25 to 57 percent.
> Sadly> , 80
> > percent of all those in prison for drug offenses are either Latinos
or
> Afri> can
> > Americans.
> > 
> > Paramilitary SWAT teams in U.S. cities have been overly aggressive 
> against
> > suspected drug dealers.  The libertarian CATO Institute has reported 
that
> t> hese
> > units have entered the homes of 170 innocents and killed 43.  The
CATO
> webs> ite
> > also lists 23 nonviolent offenders and 25 police officers killed.
> > 
> > Last year the U.S. spent $69 billion interfering in the lives of
> >  North
> > 
> >  and
> > South
> >  Americans, supporting
> >  military activities and crop eradication that have
> > alienated millions of people south of the border.  
> > 
> > In 2007 one of the first acts of Mexican President Felipe Calderon
was 
to
> u> se
> > the army to crack down on Mexico's three major drug cartels.
Calderon 
> used
> > the army because local and regional police and many office holders
had
> alre> ady
> > been bought off by the cartels.  The results of Mexico's military

> solution
> > to drug smuggling have been disastrous.  In the past two years an 
> estimated
> > 8,790 people have been killed, including 800 soldiers and police
> office> rs. 
> > 
> > Mexico is the transshipment point for 90 percent of the cocaine
coming 
to
> t> he
> > U.S.  The main source of this drug is Columbia, which has been the 
focus
> > of U.S.
> > efforts of eradication and interdiction.  Since 2000 the U.S. has
poured>  
> $6
> > billion dollars into Columbia, but cocaine production has still 
increased
> > 
> >  4
> > percent
> >  during that
> >  time. 
> > 
> > Large
> >  acreages of coca have been destroyed; the big cartels have been
broken
> > up; left-wing guerrillas are in retreat; and the streets of Bogata
are
> > safer. 
> > But the coca farmers have simply switched to smaller plots closer to 
the
> ju> ngle
> > and right-wing paramilitary units are still involved in cocaine 
> production
> > and
> > smuggling. 
> > 
> > Nixon's war on drugs have turned entire nations against us.  Evo
> Morales,>  a
> > former coca grower, is now Bolivia's president.  At recent speech
at
> the
> > UN,
> > Morales held up a coca leaf and spoke about a World Health
Organization
> (WH> O)
> > study that concluded that the ingestion of coca was not harmful and
that>  
> it
> > might even have some beneficial effects.  When I was in Peru in 2002,

my
> > guide
> > distributed coca leaves to our group as a remedy for altitude
sickness.>  
> > 
> > In 1989 I chaired the Borah Symposium on the topic "Cocaine and
> > Conflict" and our
> > 
> >  keynote speaker was Ethan
> > 
> >  Nadelman. Now the head of
> >  the
> > Drug Policy Institute, he is a leading spokesman for drug
> legalization,>  which
> > means legal regulation, not total free use (except of marijuana) of 
hard
> > drugs. 
> > 
> > 
> > Proponents of legal regulation contend that removing the illegal
trade 
> and
> > criminal gangs will have the same positive effect as the ending of
> Prohibit> ion
> > in 1933.  A $250-350 billion business would become a source for much
> needed>  tax
> > revenue that can be used to rebuild communities and rehabilitate
those
> rela> tive
> > few who have been addicted to drugs.  
> > 
> > A 2007 Zogby Poll asked the following question of 1028 people:
"If
> hard
> > drugs such as heroin or cocaine were legalized, would you be likely
to
> us> e
> > them."  Only 6 answered in the affirmative.  
> > There are over 250 shops in the Netherlands where one can buy
marijuana
> > legally, but only 16 percent of the adult population has even tried
> > 
> >  cannibals,
> > while 33 percent of
> >  Americans
> >  have.  One commentator
> >  quipped that the Dutch have
> > made smoking pot "uncool." 
> > 
> > Reading the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) website, one would
> thin> k that
> > liberalizing drug laws in Europe has been a complete failure. In 
England
> do> ctors
> > used to prescribe heroin to addicts under controlled conditions and 
their
> > numbers stabilized at 2,000, but since that program was abolished in
> 19> 70 the
> > number has risen to 300,000.  Similar programs in Germany, Spain,
> Swi> tzerland,
> > and the Netherlands have proved effective.
> > 
> > One of the most effective organizations for legal regulation of drugs

is
> La> w
> > Enforcement against Prohibition (LEAP). Since its founding in 2002,
> LEAP'> s
> > membership, former police officers, DEA agents, and city
> officials,>  has grown to
> > 5,000.  These men and women have seen first hand how Nixon's war
on
> drugs
> > has devastated their communities and made
> > 
> >  criminals out of ordinary citizens. 
> >  
> > 
> > As long as the
> >  U.S. has the
> >  highest drug use rate in the industrialized world,
> > this demand will drive the criminal drug trade and will continue to
> destabi> lize
> > all the countries south of the border. We should immediately
un-declare
> the>  wars
> > on drugs and terror.  Police surveillance and investigation should 
> replace
> > paramilitary over-kill. We should decriminalize the use of marijuana
and>  
> we
> > should try the policy of legal regulation of all other drugs and see
if>  
> it
> > works.
> > 
> >
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> 
> 
> 
> "For a lapsed Lutheran born-again Buddhist pan-Humanist Universalist 
> Unitarian Wiccan Agnostic like myself there's really no reason ever to
go>  
> to work."
> 
> - Roy Zimmerman
> 
> 
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"For a lapsed Lutheran born-again Buddhist pan-Humanist Universalist 
Unitarian Wiccan Agnostic like myself there's really no reason ever to go 
to work."

- Roy Zimmerman


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