[Vision2020] [Spam 6.72] Re: Humane interrogations work
Donovan Arnold
donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Fri Feb 20 20:06:13 PST 2009
You could chop his head off. That would prevent him from being a martyr and kill him.
Best Regards,
Donovan
--- On Fri, 2/20/09, Bruce and Jean Livingston <jeanlivingston at turbonet.com> wrote:
From: Bruce and Jean Livingston <jeanlivingston at turbonet.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [Spam 6.72] Re: Humane interrogations work
To: "the lockshop" <lockguys at turbonet.com>, "Ralph Nielsen" <nielsen at uidaho.edu>, "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
Cc: "vision 2020" <Vision2020 at moscow.com>
Date: Friday, February 20, 2009, 4:46 PM
This thread started with a discussion of
whether making captured terrroist Khalid Sheikh Mohammed into a martyr, by
executing him, was preferable to not executing him.
You apparently think executing KSM would be the
better policy choice after he is convicted (assuming he is). While
Ralph may have made some unnecessarily snide comments toward Roger to begin this
thread, I believe Ralph's concern about not killing KSM (and thereby not
elevating KSM to martyrdom) is a prudent position. If KSM is
convicted of masterminding the 9-11 attacks, I would opt to imprison him for
life without possibility of parole. On top of it all, KSM wants
to be executed so he can become a martyr. I would deny him that
option.
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From:
the
lockshop
To: Bruce and Jean Livingston ; Ralph Nielsen ;
g.
crabtree
Cc: vision 2020
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 4:20
PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [Spam 6.72] Re:
Humane interrogations work
I was refering to the battlefield. To the best of
my knowlege we have not executed a single captured terrorist, in fact quite
the opposite, most have been treated far better by us then they would have had
they been returned to their native lands. I could have sworn that
"imprisionment" is what we had going at guantanamo and I would have been
content to let the vermin rot there but, apparently, that doesn't suit
the current mood. (although lip service is all that I've seen with regard to a
change)
Just to be clear though, I would have no problem
with executing any terrorist who can be proven guilty of murdering an American
or ally and firmly believe that it is a better alternative to imprisionment.
After all, these are not soldiers or prisioners of war, they are
criminals.
g
----- Original Message -----
From:
Bruce and Jean Livingston
To: the lockshop ; Ralph Nielsen
; g.
crabtree
Cc: vision 2020
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 3:32
PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [Spam 6.72]
Re: Humane interrogations work
Alternatives to execution are "surrender, capitulation
and acquiescence"? Ludicrous!
Imprisonment is an easy alternative that
punishes, deters and protects society.
Bruce Livingston
----- Original Message -----
From:
the
lockshop
To: Ralph Nielsen ; g.
crabtree
Cc: vision 2020
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 3:24
PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [Spam 6.72]
Re: Humane interrogations work
Ah, Every day is Ashura, every land is Karbala,
eh?
I'm glad we have managed to find common
ground. It is silly to be concerned about creating martyrs as
muslim extremists need no provocation or justification for their bloody
sensless acts and while killing them doesn't do as much to reduce
their ranks as quickly as I would prefer, it does put an end to the
individual bad attitude and is far preferable to leaving them loose
to kill again.
As has been mentioned on a parallel thread,
killing cockroaches hasn't put an end to that problem either but no one is
suggesting that we quit.
Instead of taking exception to my solution to
the problem and insisting that I "think of something better," why don't
you enlighten me with your solution. Surrender, capitulation, and
acquiescence perhaps?
g
----- Original Message -----
From:
Ralph
Nielsen
To: g. crabtree
Cc: vision 2020
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009
2:17 PM
Subject: [Spam 6.72] Re:
[Vision2020] Humane interrogations work
Sorry, Gary, creating martyrs doesn't work. Many years ago the
Christian church declared, "The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the
Church."
Some years later, in 680 C.E., Husayn ibn Ali, the grandson
of the Prophet, and a small group of family members and followers were
defeated and beheaded by a much larger army. Ever since then their
martyrdom has been commemorated by millions of Muslims. Before he was
slain, the martyr Husayn declared, "The believer should desire to meet his Lord
while he is right. Thus I do not see death but as happiness, and living
with tyrants but as sorrow."
Gary, you've got to think of something better than just killing
people.
Ralph
g. crabtree wrote:
I don't know about Roger but I'm A-OK with
dead terrorists. It certainly is a deterrent for the individual
terrorist in question and as to their becoming one more martyr, who
cares? It's not as though the lack would result in any reduction in
anti American/western violence. After all, Who was Bin Laden avenging?
What about Mohamed Atta, Marwan Al-Shehhi, Fayez Ahmed, Mohald
Alshehri, Hamza Alghamdi and Ahmed Alghamdi, Waleed M Alshehri, Wail
Alshehri, Abdulaziz Alomari, Satam Al Suqami, Khalid Al-Midhar, Majed
Moqed, Nawaq Alhamzi, Salem Alhamzi, Hani Hanjour, Ahmed Alhaznawi,
Ahmed Alnami, Ziad Jarrahi and Saeed Alghamdi? There is no question
but what were we to cease bringing terrorists down to room temperature
the violence would still go on and on and on.
g
Roger,
Maybe you don't like torturing people. But
why do you deliberately
want to kill people? They don't do things
like that in civilized
countries. It doesn't work as a deterrent
and, as I have already
pointed out, it only makes martyrs out of
them. I repeat: Whose side
are you on?
Ralph
Ralph
That ia a ludicrous statement. If you
have read my posts it should
be clear that I do not like torture.
Whether he thinks he would be
a martyr or not is irrelevant. To my mind
he would not be a martyr,
just a fanatic who got what was coming to
him.
Roger
Nick
[snip]
Khalid Scheiikh Mohammed is a fanatic
and it is doubtful you could
appeal to his good side. He wants to
executed so he can be a martyr.
I would grant his wish. It is to be
expected that you will get a lot
of misinformation and this should be
taked into account.
Roger
Roger, I get the impression that you
really enjoy torturing and
killing people. Why should we make a
martyr out of anyone, least of
all of a fanatic? Whose side are you
on?
Ralph
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