[Vision2020] [Spam 6.72] Re: Humane interrogations work
g. crabtree
jampot at roadrunner.com
Fri Feb 20 18:03:18 PST 2009
A point of view with some merit. I just don't think that it makes any real difference in the greater scheme of things if our extremist enemies have one more "martyr" to add to their ranks. (Do you imagine that if there was one more that then they would be REALLY pissed as opposed to the current level of mild displeasure?) As I said before, I can live with these roaches being locked up forever, I just don't think that as a punishment it's quite as foolproof as death.
g
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce and Jean Livingston
To: the lockshop ; Ralph Nielsen ; g. crabtree
Cc: vision 2020
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 4:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [Spam 6.72] Re: Humane interrogations work
This thread started with a discussion of whether making captured terrroist Khalid Sheikh Mohammed into a martyr, by executing him, was preferable to not executing him.
You apparently think executing KSM would be the better policy choice after he is convicted (assuming he is). While Ralph may have made some unnecessarily snide comments toward Roger to begin this thread, I believe Ralph's concern about not killing KSM (and thereby not elevating KSM to martyrdom) is a prudent position. If KSM is convicted of masterminding the 9-11 attacks, I would opt to imprison him for life without possibility of parole. On top of it all, KSM wants to be executed so he can become a martyr. I would deny him that option.
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: the lockshop
To: Bruce and Jean Livingston ; Ralph Nielsen ; g. crabtree
Cc: vision 2020
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 4:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [Spam 6.72] Re: Humane interrogations work
I was refering to the battlefield. To the best of my knowlege we have not executed a single captured terrorist, in fact quite the opposite, most have been treated far better by us then they would have had they been returned to their native lands. I could have sworn that "imprisionment" is what we had going at guantanamo and I would have been content to let the vermin rot there but, apparently, that doesn't suit the current mood. (although lip service is all that I've seen with regard to a change)
Just to be clear though, I would have no problem with executing any terrorist who can be proven guilty of murdering an American or ally and firmly believe that it is a better alternative to imprisionment. After all, these are not soldiers or prisioners of war, they are criminals.
g
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce and Jean Livingston
To: the lockshop ; Ralph Nielsen ; g. crabtree
Cc: vision 2020
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 3:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [Spam 6.72] Re: Humane interrogations work
Alternatives to execution are "surrender, capitulation and acquiescence"? Ludicrous!
Imprisonment is an easy alternative that punishes, deters and protects society.
Bruce Livingston
----- Original Message -----
From: the lockshop
To: Ralph Nielsen ; g. crabtree
Cc: vision 2020
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 3:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [Spam 6.72] Re: Humane interrogations work
Ah, Every day is Ashura, every land is Karbala, eh?
I'm glad we have managed to find common ground. It is silly to be concerned about creating martyrs as muslim extremists need no provocation or justification for their bloody sensless acts and while killing them doesn't do as much to reduce their ranks as quickly as I would prefer, it does put an end to the individual bad attitude and is far preferable to leaving them loose to kill again.
As has been mentioned on a parallel thread, killing cockroaches hasn't put an end to that problem either but no one is suggesting that we quit.
Instead of taking exception to my solution to the problem and insisting that I "think of something better," why don't you enlighten me with your solution. Surrender, capitulation, and acquiescence perhaps?
g
----- Original Message -----
From: Ralph Nielsen
To: g. crabtree
Cc: vision 2020
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 2:17 PM
Subject: [Spam 6.72] Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work
Sorry, Gary, creating martyrs doesn't work. Many years ago the Christian church declared, "The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church."
Some years later, in 680 C.E., Husayn ibn Ali, the grandson of the Prophet, and a small group of family members and followers were defeated and beheaded by a much larger army. Ever since then their martyrdom has been commemorated by millions of Muslims. Before he was slain, the martyr Husayn declared, "The believer should desire to meet his Lord while he is right. Thus I do not see death but as happiness, and living with tyrants but as sorrow."
Gary, you've got to think of something better than just killing people.
Ralph
g. crabtree wrote:
I don't know about Roger but I'm A-OK with dead terrorists. It certainly is a deterrent for the individual terrorist in question and as to their becoming one more martyr, who cares? It's not as though the lack would result in any reduction in anti American/western violence. After all, Who was Bin Laden avenging? What about Mohamed Atta, Marwan Al-Shehhi, Fayez Ahmed, Mohald Alshehri, Hamza Alghamdi and Ahmed Alghamdi, Waleed M Alshehri, Wail Alshehri, Abdulaziz Alomari, Satam Al Suqami, Khalid Al-Midhar, Majed Moqed, Nawaq Alhamzi, Salem Alhamzi, Hani Hanjour, Ahmed Alhaznawi, Ahmed Alnami, Ziad Jarrahi and Saeed Alghamdi? There is no question but what were we to cease bringing terrorists down to room temperature the violence would still go on and on and on.
g
Roger,
Maybe you don't like torturing people. But why do you deliberately
want to kill people? They don't do things like that in civilized
countries. It doesn't work as a deterrent and, as I have already
pointed out, it only makes martyrs out of them. I repeat: Whose side
are you on?
Ralph
Ralph
That ia a ludicrous statement. If you have read my posts it should
be clear that I do not like torture. Whether he thinks he would be
a martyr or not is irrelevant. To my mind he would not be a martyr,
just a fanatic who got what was coming to him.
Roger
Nick
[snip]
Khalid Scheiikh Mohammed is a fanatic and it is doubtful you could
appeal to his good side. He wants to executed so he can be a martyr.
I would grant his wish. It is to be expected that you will get a lot
of misinformation and this should be taked into account.
Roger
Roger, I get the impression that you really enjoy torturing and
killing people. Why should we make a martyr out of anyone, least of
all of a fanatic? Whose side are you on?
Ralph
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