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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>A point of view with some merit. I just don't think
that it makes any real difference in the greater scheme of things if our
extremist enemies have one more "martyr" to add to their ranks. (Do you imagine
that if there was one more that then they would be REALLY pissed as opposed to
the current level of mild displeasure?) As I said before, I can live with these
roaches being locked up forever, I just don't think that as a punishment it's
quite as foolproof as death.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>g</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jeanlivingston@turbonet.com
href="mailto:jeanlivingston@turbonet.com">Bruce and Jean Livingston</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=lockguys@turbonet.com
href="mailto:lockguys@turbonet.com">the lockshop</A> ; <A
title=nielsen@uidaho.edu href="mailto:nielsen@uidaho.edu">Ralph Nielsen</A> ;
<A title=jampot@roadrunner.com href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">g.
crabtree</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=Vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">vision 2020</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 20, 2009 4:46
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] [Spam 6.72] Re:
Humane interrogations work</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>This thread started with a discussion of
whether making captured terrroist Khalid Sheikh Mohammed into a martyr,
by executing him, was preferable to not executing him. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>You apparently think executing KSM would be the
better policy choice after he is convicted (assuming he is). While
Ralph may have made some unnecessarily snide comments toward Roger to begin
this thread, I believe Ralph's concern about not killing KSM (and thereby
not elevating KSM to martyrdom) is a prudent position. If KSM is
convicted of masterminding the 9-11 attacks, I would opt to imprison him for
life without possibility of parole. On top of it all, KSM <EM>wants</EM>
to be executed so he can become a martyr. I would deny him
that option.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Bruce</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=lockguys@turbonet.com href="mailto:lockguys@turbonet.com">the
lockshop</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=jeanlivingston@turbonet.com
href="mailto:jeanlivingston@turbonet.com">Bruce and Jean Livingston</A> ; <A
title=nielsen@uidaho.edu href="mailto:nielsen@uidaho.edu">Ralph Nielsen</A>
; <A title=jampot@roadrunner.com href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">g.
crabtree</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=Vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">vision 2020</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 20, 2009 4:20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] [Spam 6.72]
Re: Humane interrogations work</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I was refering to the battlefield. To the best
of my knowlege we have not executed a single captured terrorist, in fact
quite the opposite, most have been treated far better by us then they would
have had they been returned to their native lands. I could have sworn
that "imprisionment" is what we had going at guantanamo and I would have
been content to let the vermin rot there but, apparently, that doesn't
suit the current mood. (although lip service is all that I've seen with
regard to a change)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Just to be clear though, I would have no
problem with executing any terrorist who can be proven guilty of murdering
an American or ally and firmly believe that it is a better alternative to
imprisionment. After all, these are not soldiers or prisioners of war, they
are criminals.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>g</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jeanlivingston@turbonet.com
href="mailto:jeanlivingston@turbonet.com">Bruce and Jean Livingston</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=lockguys@turbonet.com
href="mailto:lockguys@turbonet.com">the lockshop</A> ; <A
title=nielsen@uidaho.edu href="mailto:nielsen@uidaho.edu">Ralph
Nielsen</A> ; <A title=jampot@roadrunner.com
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">g. crabtree</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=Vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">vision 2020</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 20, 2009 3:32
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] [Spam 6.72]
Re: Humane interrogations work</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Alternatives to execution are "surrender,
capitulation and acquiescence"? Ludicrous!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Imprisonment is an easy alternative that
punishes, deters and protects society.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Bruce Livingston</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=lockguys@turbonet.com href="mailto:lockguys@turbonet.com">the
lockshop</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=nielsen@uidaho.edu
href="mailto:nielsen@uidaho.edu">Ralph Nielsen</A> ; <A
title=jampot@roadrunner.com href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">g.
crabtree</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=Vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">vision 2020</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 20, 2009
3:24 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] [Spam
6.72] Re: Humane interrogations work</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ah, <FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><FONT face=Arial size=2>Every day is Ashura, every land is
Karbala, eh?</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm glad we have managed to find common
ground. It is silly to be concerned about creating martyrs as
muslim extremists need no provocation or justification for their bloody
sensless acts and while killing them doesn't do as much to reduce
their ranks as quickly as I would prefer, it does put an end to the
individual bad attitude and is far preferable to leaving them loose
to kill again.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>As has been mentioned on a parallel thread,
killing cockroaches hasn't put an end to that problem either but no one
is suggesting that we quit. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Instead of taking exception to my solution
to the problem and insisting that I "think of something better," why
don't you enlighten me with your solution. Surrender,
capitulation, and acquiescence perhaps?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>g</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=nielsen@uidaho.edu href="mailto:nielsen@uidaho.edu">Ralph
Nielsen</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=jampot@roadrunner.com href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">g.
crabtree</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=Vision2020@moscow.com href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">vision
2020</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 20, 2009
2:17 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Spam 6.72] Re:
[Vision2020] Humane interrogations work</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Sorry, Gary, creating martyrs doesn't work. Many years ago the
Christian church declared, "The blood of the martyrs is the seed of
the Church." </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Some years later, in 680 C.E., Husayn ibn Ali, the grandson
of the Prophet, and a small group of family members and followers were
defeated and beheaded by a much larger army. Ever since then their
martyrdom has been commemorated by millions of Muslims. Before he was
slain, the martyr Husayn declared, "<SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">The believer should desire to meet his Lord
while he is right. Thus I do not see death but as happiness, and
living with tyrants but as sorrow."<SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-SIZE: 14px"> </SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Gary, you've got to think of something better than just killing
people.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Ralph</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV> g. crabtree wrote:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">I don't know about Roger but I'm A-OK with
dead terrorists. It certainly is a deterrent for the individual
terrorist in question and as to their becoming one more martyr, who
cares? It's not as though the lack would result in any reduction in
anti American/western violence. After all, Who was Bin Laden
avenging? What about Mohamed Atta, Marwan Al-Shehhi, Fayez Ahmed,
Mohald Alshehri, Hamza Alghamdi and Ahmed Alghamdi, Waleed M
Alshehri, Wail Alshehri, Abdulaziz Alomari, Satam Al Suqami, Khalid
Al-Midhar, Majed Moqed, Nawaq Alhamzi, Salem Alhamzi, Hani Hanjour,
Ahmed Alhaznawi, Ahmed Alnami, Ziad Jarrahi and Saeed Alghamdi?
There is no question but what were we to cease bringing terrorists
down to room temperature the violence would still go on and on and
on.</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">g</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Roger,</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Maybe you don't like torturing people.
But why do you deliberately</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">want to kill people? They don't do things
like that in civilized</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">countries. It doesn't work as a deterrent
and, as I have already</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">pointed out, it only makes martyrs out of
them. I repeat: Whose side</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">are you on?</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Ralph</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Ralph</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">That ia a ludicrous statement. If you
have read my posts it should</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">be clear that I do not like torture.
Whether he thinks he would be</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">a martyr or not is irrelevant. To my
mind he would not be a martyr,</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">just a fanatic who got what was coming
to him.</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Roger</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Nick</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">[snip]</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Khalid Scheiikh Mohammed is a fanatic
and it is doubtful you could</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">appeal to his good side. He wants to
executed so he can be a martyr.</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">I would grant his wish. It is to be
expected that you will get a lot</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">of misinformation and this should be
taked into account.</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Roger</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Roger, I get the impression that you
really enjoy torturing and</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">killing people. Why should we make a
martyr out of anyone, least of</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">all of a fanatic? Whose side are you
on?</DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px">Ralph</DIV>
<DIV
style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV
style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
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