<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;">You could chop his head off. That would prevent him from being a martyr and kill him. <br><br>Best Regards,<br><br>Donovan<br><br>--- On <b>Fri, 2/20/09, Bruce and Jean Livingston <i><jeanlivingston@turbonet.com></i></b> wrote:<br><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;">From: Bruce and Jean Livingston <jeanlivingston@turbonet.com><br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [Spam 6.72] Re: Humane interrogations work<br>To: "the lockshop" <lockguys@turbonet.com>, "Ralph Nielsen" <nielsen@uidaho.edu>, "g. crabtree" <jampot@roadrunner.com><br>Cc: "vision 2020" <Vision2020@moscow.com><br>Date: Friday, February 20, 2009, 4:46 PM<br><br><div id="yiv1156060856">
<style></style>
<div><font face="Arial">This thread started with a discussion of
whether making captured terrroist Khalid Sheikh Mohammed into a martyr, by
executing him, was preferable to not executing him. </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">You apparently think executing KSM would be the
better policy choice after he is convicted (assuming he is). While
Ralph may have made some unnecessarily snide comments toward Roger to begin this
thread, I believe Ralph's concern about not killing KSM (and thereby not
elevating KSM to martyrdom) is a prudent position. If KSM is
convicted of masterminding the 9-11 attacks, I would opt to imprison him for
life without possibility of parole. On top of it all, KSM <em>wants</em>
to be executed so he can become a martyr. I would deny him that
option.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Bruce</font></div>
<blockquote dir="ltr" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>From:</b>
<a rel="nofollow" title="lockguys@turbonet.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:lockguys@turbonet.com">the
lockshop</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>To:</b> <a rel="nofollow" title="jeanlivingston@turbonet.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:jeanlivingston@turbonet.com">Bruce and Jean Livingston</a> ; <a rel="nofollow" title="nielsen@uidaho.edu" target="_blank" href="mailto:nielsen@uidaho.edu">Ralph Nielsen</a> ;
<a rel="nofollow" title="jampot@roadrunner.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">g.
crabtree</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>Cc:</b> <a rel="nofollow" title="Vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">vision 2020</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 20, 2009 4:20
PM</div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] [Spam 6.72] Re:
Humane interrogations work</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">I was refering to the battlefield. To the best of
my knowlege we have not executed a single captured terrorist, in fact quite
the opposite, most have been treated far better by us then they would have had
they been returned to their native lands. I could have sworn that
"imprisionment" is what we had going at guantanamo and I would have been
content to let the vermin rot there but, apparently, that doesn't suit
the current mood. (although lip service is all that I've seen with regard to a
change)</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Just to be clear though, I would have no problem
with executing any terrorist who can be proven guilty of murdering an American
or ally and firmly believe that it is a better alternative to imprisionment.
After all, these are not soldiers or prisioners of war, they are
criminals.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">g</font></div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>From:</b>
<a rel="nofollow" title="jeanlivingston@turbonet.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:jeanlivingston@turbonet.com">Bruce and Jean Livingston</a>
</div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>To:</b> <a rel="nofollow" title="lockguys@turbonet.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:lockguys@turbonet.com">the lockshop</a> ; <a rel="nofollow" title="nielsen@uidaho.edu" target="_blank" href="mailto:nielsen@uidaho.edu">Ralph Nielsen</a>
; <a rel="nofollow" title="jampot@roadrunner.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">g.
crabtree</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>Cc:</b> <a rel="nofollow" title="Vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">vision 2020</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 20, 2009 3:32
PM</div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] [Spam 6.72]
Re: Humane interrogations work</div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><br></div>
<div><font face="Arial">Alternatives to execution are "surrender, capitulation
and acquiescence"? Ludicrous!</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Imprisonment is an easy alternative that
punishes, deters and protects society.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Bruce Livingston</font></div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>From:</b>
<a rel="nofollow" title="lockguys@turbonet.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:lockguys@turbonet.com">the
lockshop</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>To:</b> <a rel="nofollow" title="nielsen@uidaho.edu" target="_blank" href="mailto:nielsen@uidaho.edu">Ralph Nielsen</a> ; <a rel="nofollow" title="jampot@roadrunner.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">g.
crabtree</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>Cc:</b> <a rel="nofollow" title="Vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">vision 2020</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 20, 2009 3:24
PM</div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] [Spam 6.72]
Re: Humane interrogations work</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Ah, <font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><font size="2" face="Arial">Every day is Ashura, every land is Karbala,
eh?</font></font></font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">I'm glad we have managed to find common
ground. It is silly to be concerned about creating martyrs as
muslim extremists need no provocation or justification for their bloody
sensless acts and while killing them doesn't do as much to reduce
their ranks as quickly as I would prefer, it does put an end to the
individual bad attitude and is far preferable to leaving them loose
to kill again.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">As has been mentioned on a parallel thread,
killing cockroaches hasn't put an end to that problem either but no one is
suggesting that we quit. </font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Instead of taking exception to my solution to
the problem and insisting that I "think of something better," why don't
you enlighten me with your solution. Surrender, capitulation, and
acquiescence perhaps?</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">g</font></div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>From:</b>
<a rel="nofollow" title="nielsen@uidaho.edu" target="_blank" href="mailto:nielsen@uidaho.edu">Ralph
Nielsen</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>To:</b> <a rel="nofollow" title="jampot@roadrunner.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">g. crabtree</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>Cc:</b> <a rel="nofollow" title="Vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">vision 2020</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 20, 2009
2:17 PM</div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>Subject:</b> [Spam 6.72] Re:
[Vision2020] Humane interrogations work</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Sorry, Gary, creating martyrs doesn't work. Many years ago the
Christian church declared, "The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the
Church." </div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Some years later, in 680 C.E., Husayn ibn Ali, the grandson
of the Prophet, and a small group of family members and followers were
defeated and beheaded by a much larger army. Ever since then their
martyrdom has been commemorated by millions of Muslims. Before he was
slain, the martyr Husayn declared, "<span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">The believer should desire to meet his Lord
while he is right. Thus I do not see death but as happiness, and living
with tyrants but as sorrow."<span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;"> </span></span></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Gary, you've got to think of something better than just killing
people.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Ralph</div>
<div><br></div><br>
<div>
<div> g. crabtree wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="margin: 0px;">I don't know about Roger but I'm A-OK with
dead terrorists. It certainly is a deterrent for the individual
terrorist in question and as to their becoming one more martyr, who
cares? It's not as though the lack would result in any reduction in
anti American/western violence. After all, Who was Bin Laden avenging?
What about Mohamed Atta, Marwan Al-Shehhi, Fayez Ahmed, Mohald
Alshehri, Hamza Alghamdi and Ahmed Alghamdi, Waleed M Alshehri, Wail
Alshehri, Abdulaziz Alomari, Satam Al Suqami, Khalid Al-Midhar, Majed
Moqed, Nawaq Alhamzi, Salem Alhamzi, Hani Hanjour, Ahmed Alhaznawi,
Ahmed Alnami, Ziad Jarrahi and Saeed Alghamdi? There is no question
but what were we to cease bringing terrorists down to room temperature
the violence would still go on and on and on.</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div>
<div style="margin: 0px;">g</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div>
<div style="margin: 0px;"><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="margin: 0px;">Roger,</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div>
<div style="margin: 0px;">Maybe you don't like torturing people. But
why do you deliberately</div>
<div style="margin: 0px;">want to kill people? They don't do things
like that in civilized</div>
<div style="margin: 0px;">countries. It doesn't work as a deterrent
and, as I have already</div>
<div style="margin: 0px;">pointed out, it only makes martyrs out of
them. I repeat: Whose side</div>
<div style="margin: 0px;">are you on?</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div>
<div style="margin: 0px;">Ralph</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="margin: 0px;">Ralph</div>
<div style="margin: 0px;">That ia a ludicrous statement. If you
have read my posts it should</div>
<div style="margin: 0px;">be clear that I do not like torture.
Whether he thinks he would be</div>
<div style="margin: 0px;">a martyr or not is irrelevant. To my mind
he would not be a martyr,</div>
<div style="margin: 0px;">just a fanatic who got what was coming to
him.</div>
<div style="margin: 0px;">Roger</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div>
<div style="margin: 0px;">Nick</div>
<div style="margin: 0px;">[snip]</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div>
<div style="margin: 0px;">Khalid Scheiikh Mohammed is a fanatic
and it is doubtful you could</div>
<div style="margin: 0px;">appeal to his good side. He wants to
executed so he can be a martyr.</div>
<div style="margin: 0px;">I would grant his wish. It is to be
expected that you will get a lot</div>
<div style="margin: 0px;">of misinformation and this should be
taked into account.</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div>
<div style="margin: 0px;">Roger</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div>
<div style="margin: 0px;">Roger, I get the impression that you
really enjoy torturing and</div>
<div style="margin: 0px;">killing people. Why should we make a
martyr out of anyone, least of</div>
<div style="margin: 0px;">all of a fanatic? Whose side are you
on?</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div>
<div style="margin: 0px;">Ralph</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div></blockquote></blockquote>
<div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;"><br></div></blockquote></blockquote></div>
<p>
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2/20/2009 7:26 AM<br></blockquote>
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