[Vision2020] Fw: [Spam 5.86] BE OUTSIDE!
Donovan Arnold
donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Mon Feb 2 23:20:00 PST 2009
Roger,
Boy scouts does take public money. In doing so, they SHOULD NOT be allowed to discriminate against teenagers and staff because of their sexual orientation.
If you disagree, you disagree. But I think it is wrong.
I also think any organization that discriminates against children, teens, and staff on the basis of sexual orientation, disability, and race is wrong. Children cannot escape the discrimination because they have to attend public schools with their peers that are also in this social organization that teaches being like them is wrong. What does this do to the self esteem of a teenager in a small town when all the boys his age are BS but he cannot join because he is gay? Teenagers have a difficult enough time fitting in with the group without adults creating additional meaningless divisions.
Comparing religion is not the same, IMHO because religion relates to following a higher power of the State, the Boy Scouts is not.
Best Regards,
Donovan
--- On Mon, 2/2/09, lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:
From: lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: [Spam 5.86] BE OUTSIDE!
To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com, "Chasuk" <chasuk at gmail.com>, "Joe Campbell" <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Monday, February 2, 2009, 11:28 AM
Donovan
I am unaware that the Boy Scouts receive any money from the government. There
are strings attached to accepting money from the government. It is up to the
organization whether they want to accept those strings. It is possible that the
Boy Scouts may receive some federal grants for specific purposes. I don't
known whether they have done so or not. If they do, this is still different
from direct support. Under your reasoning the government could dictate the rules
for all privatee organizations, religious or otherwise. Any privat organization
should be able to set what ever rules they want, whether the general public
agrees or not. People are free not to join. The only exception would be if any
of their rules are criminal.
Roger
-----Original message-----
From: Donovan Arnold donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 16:12:33 -0800
To: Chasuk chasuk at gmail.com, Joe Campbell philosopher.joe at gmail.com, lfalen
lfalen at turbonet.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: [Spam 5.86] BE OUTSIDE!
> Roger,
>
> I disagree that the government cannot impose rules on organizations within
its boarders, especially ones that deal with children, for three major reasons.
>
> First, it is an organization that is tax exempt and uses taxpayer dollars.
It is unfair to force people to pay for an organization that discriminates
against them and/or their children.
>
> Second, young men are very impressionable and are often times struggling
with their sexual identities. Teaching children they are lesser persons because
of their sexual feelings can lead to depression, mental illness, and even
suicide.
>
> Finally, it teaches young men that discrimination against homosexuals is
alright. This is going to make it difficult for them to get along with others in
the work place, social settings, and it is going to make the lives of men and
women that have to work with them more difficult.
>
> If this was an organization of adults, I might agree with you Roger,
provided we took away all tax support. But we are dealing with children and
teens, and that changes the rules as to what society can allow and not allow to
happen to the children that are included and excluded from societal norms and
the reasons why they are excluded and included.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Donovan
>
>
> --- On Fri, 1/30/09, lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:
>
> From: lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: [Spam 5.86] BE OUTSIDE!
> To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com, "Chasuk"
<chasuk at gmail.com>, "Joe Campbell"
<philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Date: Friday, January 30, 2009, 10:41 AM
>
> I was never in the Boy Scouts. I was raised to far away from civilization
for
> that. However I did spend practically all of my time outside. I think that
the
> Boy Scots is a good organization and my son was in it. I don't care
whether
> they are secular or non secular. I believe that as a private organization
they
> have the right to set what ever requirements that they want. People that
do not
> like it do not have to join. It is wrong for the government to try and
impose
> rules on them.
> Roger
> -----Original message-----
> From: Donovan Arnold donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 19:38:42 -0800
> To: Chasuk chasuk at gmail.com, Joe Campbell philosopher.joe at gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: [Spam 5.86] BE OUTSIDE!
>
> > Joe,
> >
> > I think too, that the Scouts are in general a great learning tool for
many
> young men. I also agree that teaching young men to discriminate by banning
> youths that may be gay or questioning their sexuality is wrong. I think
they
> need to not be an organization about sex or sexual orientation, and
instead be
> an organization that focuses on nature and community service, as they have
> always been.
> >
> > I was a scout for about two years. I didn't like it as much as
Indian
> Guides. I thought Indian Guides was less formal and more creative. The
problem
> was there was not enough kids to form a decent group in local enough area,
so
> I moved in the Boy Scouts. It was fun, but too formal, in my opinion.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Donovan
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Donovan
> >
> > --- On Thu, 1/29/09, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
wrote:
> >
> > From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: [Spam 5.86] BE OUTSIDE!
> > To: "Chasuk" <chasuk at gmail.com>
> > Cc: "vision2020 at moscow.com" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > Date: Thursday, January 29, 2009, 2:34 PM
> >
> > I don't want get controversial but the anti-gay comments have
hurt,
> > too. I was a scout. And odidnt mind the uniforms! Both my dad and
> > brother were eagle scouts.
> >
> > Joe Campbell
> >
> > On Jan 29, 2009, at 1:44 PM, Chasuk <chasuk at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 12:52, Darrell Keim
<keim153 at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> I really like what the CiNN network is all about-getting
kids
> into
> > >> nature. But, speaking as a former professional Scout
> coordinator, it
> > >> seems a bit redundant. We've had Girl and Boy Scouts
for
> almost
> > 100
> > >> years doing just this. The program is in place, the support
> network
> > >> has already been built, 100s of thousands of kids are
> participating
> > >> with the assistance of numerous volunteers, and many great
camps
> > >> exist. Why not support and grow what we already have?
> > >
> > > When I was a kid, my parents tried to involve me in Scouts many
> times,
> > > but I hated it. I disliked then, and I dislike now, anything
> > > resembling merit badges. If something is worth doing, it is
worth
> > > doing for itself, and the ribbons and medals are condescending.
> > > Further, most of the merit-badge-earning activities I found
pointless
> > > and tedious.
> > >
> > > I dislike that the Boy Scouts are not entirely secular, although
the
> > > Girl Scouts gets this right. I also think that the uniforms
should
> > > go. I know a couple of Boy Scouts, and they all look
embarrassed by
> > > the uniforms.
> > >
> > > Anyway, those are my objections to Scouting. Your mileage may
vary
> > > (and probably will).
> >
> > =======================================================
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> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > =======================================================
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
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