<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;">Roger,<br><br>Boy scouts does take public money. In doing so, they SHOULD NOT be allowed to discriminate against teenagers and staff because of their sexual orientation. <br><br>If you disagree, you disagree. But I think it is wrong.<br><br>I also think any organization that discriminates against children, teens, and staff on the basis of sexual orientation, disability, and race is wrong. Children cannot escape the discrimination because they have to attend public schools with their peers that are also in this social organization that teaches being like them is wrong. What does this do to the self esteem of a teenager in a small town when all the boys his age are BS but he cannot join because he is gay? Teenagers have a difficult enough time fitting in with the group without adults creating additional meaningless divisions.<br><br>Comparing religion is
not the same, IMHO because religion relates to following a higher power of the State, the Boy Scouts is not. <br><br>Best Regards,<br><br>Donovan<br><br><br><br>--- On <b>Mon, 2/2/09, lfalen <i><lfalen@turbonet.com></i></b> wrote:<br><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;">From: <span>lfalen</span> <lfalen@turbonet.com><br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: [Spam 5.86] BE OUTSIDE!<br>To: donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com, "Chasuk" <chasuk@gmail.com>, "Joe Campbell" <philosopher.joe@gmail.com><br>Cc: vision2020@moscow.com<br>Date: Monday, February 2, 2009, 11:28 AM<br><br><pre>Donovan<br>I am unaware that the Boy Scouts receive any money from the government. There<br>are strings attached to accepting money from the government. It is up to the<br>organization whether they want to accept those strings. It is possible that the<br>Boy Scouts may receive some federal grants for specific
purposes. I don't<br>known whether they have done so or not. If they do, this is still different<br>from direct support. Under your reasoning the government could dictate the rules<br>for all <span>privatee</span> organizations, religious or otherwise. Any privat organization<br>should be able to set what ever rules they want, whether the general public<br>agrees or not. People are free not to join. The only exception would be if any<br>of their rules are criminal.<br>Roger<br>-----Original message-----<br>From: Donovan Arnold donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com<br>Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 16:12:33 -0800<br>To: Chasuk chasuk@gmail.com, Joe Campbell philosopher.joe@gmail.com, lfalen<br>lfalen@turbonet.com<br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: [Spam 5.86] BE OUTSIDE!<br><br>> Roger,<br>> <br>> I disagree that the government cannot impose rules on organizations within<br>its boarders, especially ones that deal with children, for three major
reasons.<br>> <br>> First, it is an organization that is tax exempt and uses taxpayer dollars.<br>It is unfair to force people to pay for an organization that discriminates<br>against them and/or their children. <br>> <br>> Second, young men are very impressionable and are often times struggling<br>with their sexual identities. Teaching children they are lesser persons because<br>of their sexual feelings can lead to depression, mental illness, and even<br>suicide. <br>> <br>> Finally, it teaches young men that discrimination against homosexuals is<br>alright. This is going to make it difficult for them to get along with others in<br>the work place, social settings, and it is going to make the lives of men and<br>women that have to work with them more difficult. <br>> <br>> If this was an organization of adults, I might agree with you Roger,<br>provided we took away all tax support. But we are dealing with
children and<br>teens, and that changes the rules as to what society can allow and not allow to<br>happen to the children that are included and excluded from societal norms and<br>the reasons why they are excluded and included. <br>> <br>> Best Regards,<br>> <br>> Donovan<br>> <br>> <br>> --- On Fri, 1/30/09, lfalen <lfalen@turbonet.com> wrote:<br>> <br>> From: lfalen <lfalen@turbonet.com><br>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: [Spam 5.86] BE OUTSIDE!<br>> To: donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com, "Chasuk"<br><chasuk@gmail.com>, "Joe Campbell"<br><philosopher.joe@gmail.com><br>> Cc: vision2020@moscow.com<br>> Date: Friday, January 30, 2009, 10:41 AM<br>> <br>> I was never in the Boy Scouts. I was raised to far away from civilization<br>for<br>> that. However I did spend practically all of my time outside. I think that<br>the<br>> Boy Scots is a good organization and my
son was in it. I don't care<br>whether<br>> they are secular or non secular. I believe that as a private organization<br>they<br>> have the right to set what ever requirements that they want. People that<br>do not<br>> like it do not have to join. It is wrong for the government to try and<br>impose<br>> rules on them.<br>> Roger<br>> -----Original message-----<br>> From: Donovan Arnold donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com<br>> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 19:38:42 -0800<br>> To: Chasuk chasuk@gmail.com, Joe Campbell philosopher.joe@gmail.com<br>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: [Spam 5.86] BE OUTSIDE!<br>> <br>> > Joe,<br>> > <br>> > I think too, that the Scouts are in general a great learning tool for<br>many<br>> young men. I also agree that teaching young men to discriminate by banning<br>> youths that may be gay or questioning their sexuality is wrong. I think<br>they<br>> need to not be an
organization about sex or sexual orientation, and<br>instead be<br>> an organization that focuses on nature and community service, as they have<br>> always been. <br>> > <br>> > I was a scout for about two years. I didn't like it as much as<br>Indian<br>> Guides. I thought Indian Guides was less formal and more creative. The<br>problem<br>> was there was not enough kids to form a decent group in local enough area,<br>so<br>> I moved in the Boy Scouts. It was fun, but too formal, in my opinion. <br>> > <br>> > Best Regards,<br>> > <br>> > Donovan<br>> > <br>> > Best Regards,<br>> > <br>> > Donovan<br>> > <br>> > --- On Thu, 1/29/09, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe@gmail.com><br>wrote:<br>> > <br>> > From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe@gmail.com><br>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: [Spam 5.86] BE
OUTSIDE!<br>> > To: "Chasuk" <chasuk@gmail.com><br>> > Cc: "vision2020@moscow.com" <vision2020@moscow.com><br>> > Date: Thursday, January 29, 2009, 2:34 PM<br>> > <br>> > I don't want get controversial but the anti-gay comments have<br>hurt, <br>> > too. I was a scout. And odidnt mind the uniforms! Both my dad and <br>> > brother were eagle scouts.<br>> > <br>> > Joe Campbell<br>> > <br>> > On Jan 29, 2009, at 1:44 PM, Chasuk <chasuk@gmail.com> wrote:<br>> > <br>> > > On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 12:52, Darrell Keim<br><keim153@gmail.com><br>> > wrote:<br>> > ><br>> > >> I really like what the CiNN network is all about-getting<br>kids<br>> into<br>> > >> nature. But, speaking as a former professional Scout<br>> coordinator, it<br>> > >> seems a bit redundant. We've had Girl and Boy
Scouts<br>for<br>> almost<br>> > 100<br>> > >> years doing just this. The program is in place, the support<br>> network<br>> > >> has already been built, 100s of thousands of kids are<br>> participating<br>> > >> with the assistance of numerous volunteers, and many great<br>camps<br>> > >> exist. Why not support and grow what we already have?<br>> > ><br>> > > When I was a kid, my parents tried to involve me in Scouts many<br>> times,<br>> > > but I hated it. I disliked then, and I dislike now, anything<br>> > > resembling merit badges. If something is worth doing, it is<br>worth<br>> > > doing for itself, and the ribbons and medals are condescending.<br>> > > Further, most of the merit-badge-earning activities I found<br>pointless<br>> > > and tedious.<br>> > ><br>> > > I dislike that the Boy Scouts are
not entirely secular, although<br>the<br>> > > Girl Scouts gets this right. I also think that the uniforms<br>should<br>> > > go. I know a couple of Boy Scouts, and they all look<br>embarrassed by<br>> > > the uniforms.<br>> > ><br>> > > Anyway, those are my objections to Scouting. Your mileage may<br>vary<br>> > > (and probably will).<br>> > <br>> > =======================================================<br>> > List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br>> > http://www.fsr.net <br>> > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > =======================================================<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>>
<br><br>=======================================================<br> List services made available by First Step Internet, <br> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br> http://www.fsr.net <br> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>=======================================================</pre></blockquote></td></tr></table><br>