[Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As ye sow, so shall you
Joe Campbell
philosopher.joe at gmail.com
Fri Apr 24 19:57:54 PDT 2009
No you miss the point. Torture is bad, morally and practically. I
don't care who endorses it. You seem to care.
Joe Campbell
On Apr 24, 2009, at 6:30 AM, "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
wrote:
> What fine, brave sentiments. Of course knowing an OBL/Eric Holder
> justice department would never allow that to happen does make that
> sort of egalitarianism much easier to spout.
>
> g
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joe Campbell
> To: g. crabtree
> Cc: <godshatter at yahoo.com> ; <lfalen at turbonet.com> ;
> <bear at moscow.com> ; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 6:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As ye sow, so
> shall you
>
> If Pelosi and Clinton are as guilty as Bush and Cheney, then by all
> means, put them on trial, too!
>
> Joe Campbell
>
> On Apr 24, 2009, at 6:03 AM, "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> wrote:
>
>> "What I am hoping to see, sooner than later is that the people who
>> AUTHORIZED and gave the legal opinions that torture is admissible
>> are brought before a court for prosecutions... IF they ( Bush,
>> Cheney, Rice, Ashcroft, Gonzales et al) didn't break any laws,
>> wouldn't
>> they be acquitted?"
>>
>> If that's to be the case, I would have to assume that you would
>> want Nancy Pelosi added to the afore mentioned group in the dock.
>> Reports
>> I'm seeing have her and other key democrat congresspeople being
>> fully briefed on what was going on as early as 2002. While we're at
>> it lets throw in Bill Clinton for kicking off the whole
>> extraordinary rendition program back in 1995.
>>
>> The idea of rounding up a few key Bush administration officials and
>> making them into raw meat to satisfy the howling of the huffington/
>> kos mob reeks of hypocrisy and partisanship.
>>
>> g
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <bear at moscow.com>
>> To: <jampot at roadrunner.com>; <godshatter at yahoo.com>; <lfalen at turbonet.com
>> >; <bear at moscow.com>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:42 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As ye sow, so
>> shall you
>>
>> > Gary,
>> >
>> > I see your point, and no one would say putting a caterpillar in
>> the cell would be torture,
>> > and
>> > I've got to think that not having the weekend sleep in wouldn't
>> be either. But what about
>> > 183
>> > water boardings of one person? 83 times for another?
>> >
>> > One of the keys to what you said how ever is the term "unlawful
>> combatant". An unlawful
>> > combatant or unprivileged combatant/belligerent is a civilian who
>> directly engages in
>> > armed
>> > conflict in violation of International Humanitarian Law (IHL) and
>> may be detained or
>> > prosecuted
>> > under the domestic law of the detaining state for such action.
>> Now, that is the law as
>> > agreed to
>> > under the International Committee of the Red Cross. Now, the
>> detention and prosecution
>> > under
>> > domestic law, in this case US law gets to be interesting.
>> >
>> > Is it the policy under domestic US laws to treat prisoners like
>> this? Forget the Sunni or
>> > Shiites,
>> > what about the guy from Twin Falls? IF it is ok to do this to
>> under domestic law, it's ok
>> > to do it
>> > to ANYONE that is detained and prosecuted.
>> >
>> > And as far as a "gaggle of surly Sunni's and snippy Shiites
>> anxious to be released and
>> > take a
>> > second shot at killing and maiming Americans", are we talking
>> about them taking shots in
>> > the
>> > US, our country or over in Iraq or Afghanistan - THEIR country?
>> I'm sure the colonial
>> > terrorists
>> > that were killing British soldiers in Massachusetts felt the same
>> way as the Iraqi and
>> > Afghani
>> > combatants feel today.
>> >
>> > What I am hoping to see, sooner than later is that the people who
>> AUTHORIZED and gave the
>> > legal opinions that torture is admissible are brought before a
>> court for prosecutions.
>> > Remember, one of the most serious parts of the post World War Two
>> prosecutions was the
>> > nazi
>> > judges and prosecutors,the people that told Hitler that he wasn't
>> breaking any laws!
>> >
>> > IF they ( Bush, Cheney, Rice, Aschcroft, Gonzales et al) didn't
>> break any laws, wouldn't
>> > they be
>> > acquitted? Or isn't there any faith in the system that says
>> torture is ok? And at least
>> > they would
>> > be getting trials, something denied the majority of the captives
>> at Guantánamo Bay
>> > Detention
>> > Camp.
>> >
>> >
>> ---
>> ---
>> ---
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> This seems to me to be a fair question. If it's considered
>> torture to put a
>> >> guy in a box with a caterpillar, what about a cell with a fellow
>> terrorist?
>> >> It's really just a matter of degree. If depriving an unlawful
>> combatant of
>> >> sleep is torture what about not allowing the poor dears to
>> sleep in on the
>> >> weekends? Stress positions criminal? What about not providing
>> orthopedic
>> >> queen sized beds and massaging barcoloungers? Pouring water on
>> their ugly
>> >> mugs too harsh? What about insisting that the prisoners take a
>> monthly
>> >> shower whether they need it of not?
>> >>
>> >> Rape as torture? To be sure although I'll take it over having
>> my skin
>> >> removed with eyebrow tweezers, being lowered into a chipper
>> shredder up to
>> >> my navel, being beaten with rods till the number of broken bones
>> exceeds
>> >> ones I.Q. (I know, I know a few fingers and a rib in my
>> particular case) a
>> >> week or two of ground glass suppers and battery acid enemas or
>> being rubbed
>> >> in fat and roasted till your so overcooked the New York Times
>> food critic
>> >> would send you back to the chef and write a scathing review in
>> the Sunday
>> >> style edition.
>> >>
>> >> Who ever remarked that there ought to be a line over which we do
>> not go is
>> >> correct. There is a difference between a harsh interrogation and
>> torture. In
>> >> my opinion we did a pretty fine job of walking that line. Had the
>> >> interrogators indeed been sadistic torturers and not just asking
>> poignant
>> >> questions firmly we should be seeing a trail of corpses and
>> cripples, not a
>> >> gaggle of surly Sunni's and snippy Shiites anxious to be
>> released and take a
>> >> second shot at killing and maiming Americans. It's my
>> understanding that the
>> >> interrogation of these criminals resulted in good information
>> and saved
>> >> lives and the men who brought us that result should be
>> commended, not
>> >> condemned.
>> >>
>> >> g
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: <bear at moscow.com>
>> >> To: "Paul Rumelhart" <godshatter at yahoo.com>; "lfalen" <lfalen at turbonet.com
>> >;
>> >> <bear at moscow.com>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> >> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:28 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As ye sow, so
>> shall you
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Roger,
>> >> >
>> >> > WHERE do you draw the line as far as "technique" is concerned?
>> >> > IF the alleged terrorist is a woman, is it ok to rape her till
>> she tells
>> >> > us about the plot
>> >> > to bomb
>> >> > LA?
>> >> > Or a man for that matter?
>> >> >
>> >> > AND remember, IF it's justified for the US to do it, it is
>> justified for
>> >> > everyone else
>> >> > too!
>> >> >
>> >> > The reason it's referred to as a "slippery slope" is that the
>> only
>> >> > direction to go is DOWN
>> >> > HILL!
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> ---
>> ---
>> ---
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > --
>> >> >
>> >> >> That's an extremely dangerous point of view, Roger. How far
>> do you take
>> >> >> it? It's possible that daily random inspections of citizen's
>> houses by
>> >> >> SWAT teams could yield some data. Or that torturing every
>> Muslim in
>> >> >> America would also yield results. The Internet could be used
>> to pass
>> >> >> encrypted information between terrorist cells, maybe it
>> should be shut
>> >> >> down? Perhaps a "shoot-on-sight" curfew would help make us
>> safer from
>> >> >> the threat of terrorism?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I'm tired of this country being run by a bunch of cowards.
>> Draw a moral
>> >> >> line in the sand, and stick to it. Do what is right because
>> it is
>> >> >> right, not because it is expedient.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Paul
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> lfalen wrote:
>> >> >> > Bear
>> >> >> > You are wrong on this.
>> >> >> > Because a confession was extracted fron this lady does not
>> mean that
>> >> >> > she was a spy.
>> >> > What
>> >> > we may have done at GITMO had no bearing on how Iran conducts
>> >> > interrogations. They would
>> >> > use brutal tactics no matter what we do.
>> >> >> > As to our security I believe the following:
>> >> >> > 1. If an interrogator thinks that there is good reason to
>> believe a
>> >> >> > detainee has
>> >> > information of an impending attack and does not use what ever
>> means is
>> >> > necessary to obtain
>> >> > that information and
>> >> >> > 2 There is a subsequent attack that results in a loss of
>> life.then
>> >> >> > 3. Those interrogators should be prosecuted for dereliction
>> of duty.
>> >> >> > Former CIA Director Casey said that over 50% of the valid
>> information
>> >> >> > about al-Quaeda
>> >> > came from detainees and that an attack on L.A was thwarted by
>> information
>> >> > obtained from
>> >> > KSM.
>> >> >> > Roger
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > -----Original message-----
>> >> >> > From: bear at moscow.cotwo year period? How about ten years?m
>> >> >> > Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 20:50:18 -0700
>> >> >> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >> >> > Subject: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As ye sow, so
>> shall you
>> >> >> > reep
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> Well, what we have said is fine, is now coming back to
>> bite us.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> American-Iranian journalist Roxana Saberi was sentenced
>> to eight
>> >> >> >> years' jail on
>> >> > Saturday
>> >> >> >> after
>> >> >> >> being convicted in a secret trial of spying for the United
>> States. Her
>> >> >> >> Iranian-born
>> >> >> >> father, Reza
>> >> >> >> Saberi, says she may have been tricked into a confession,
>> believing
>> >> >> >> she would be
>> >> > released
>> >> >> >> if
>> >> >> >> she co-operated with the authorities. He said his daughter
>> was so
>> >> >> >> depressed by her
>> >> >> >> sentence -
>> >> >> >> the harshest ever given to a dual national on security
>> charges in
>> >> >> >> Iran - that she is
>> >> >> >> threatening
>> >> >> >> to go on hunger strike.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Will they force feed her like we have force fed the
>> prisoners at
>> >> >> >> Guantánamo Bay
>> >> > Detention
>> >> >> >> Camp when they have gone on hunger strikes? IF they do,
>> what makes us
>> >> >> >> think we have a
>> >> >> >> right
>> >> >> >> to object?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Did they use enhanced interrogation techniques to discover
>> that she
>> >> >> >> was a spy? And
>> >> >> >> remember,
>> >> >> >> she was arrested for SPYING. If she was in the United
>> States could we
>> >> >> >> have sued
>> >> > enhanced
>> >> >> >> interrogation techniques? US Supreme Court Justice
>> Antonin Scalia
>> >> >> >> said on BBC Radio
>> >> > 4
>> >> >> >> that
>> >> >> >> since these methods are not intended to punish they do not
>> violate the
>> >> >> >> Eighth
>> >> > Amendment
>> >> > to
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> the United States Constitution, barring "cruel and unusual
>> >> >> >> punishment", and as such
>> >> > may
>> >> >
>> >> >> >> not
>> >> >> >> be unconstitutional.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Well, we started this dog fight, now we pay. How do we get
>> back on the
>> >> >> >> moral high
>> >> > ground
>> >> >> >> where this kind of behavior from ANY GOVERNMENT is wrong?
>> I believe it
>> >> >> >> starts with
>> >> > the
>> >> >
>> >> >> >> indictment and arrest of George W. Bush et al. Or don't
>> they think
>> >> >> >> they'd get a fair
>> >> >> >> trial? They
>> >> >> >> sure as hell would get better treatment awaiting trial
>> than they gave!
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------
>> >> >> >> This message was sent by First Step Internet.
>> >> >> >> http://www.fsr.com/
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
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>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > ---------------------------------------------
>> >> > This message was sent by First Step Internet.
>> >> > http://www.fsr.com/
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> ---
>> ---
>> ---
>> ---
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > -
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > =======================================================
>> >> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> >> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> >> > http://www.fsr.net
>> >> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >> > =======================================================
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ---------------------------------------------
>> > This message was sent by First Step Internet.
>> > http://www.fsr.com/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
>> =======================================================
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>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
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> p;
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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