[Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As ye sow, so shall you
g. crabtree
jampot at roadrunner.com
Fri Apr 24 06:30:32 PDT 2009
What fine, brave sentiments. Of course knowing an OBL/Eric Holder justice department would never allow that to happen does make that sort of egalitarianism much easier to spout.
g
----- Original Message -----
From: Joe Campbell
To: g. crabtree
Cc: <godshatter at yahoo.com> ; <lfalen at turbonet.com> ; <bear at moscow.com> ; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 6:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As ye sow, so shall you
If Pelosi and Clinton are as guilty as Bush and Cheney, then by all means, put them on trial, too!
Joe Campbell
On Apr 24, 2009, at 6:03 AM, "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
"What I am hoping to see, sooner than later is that the people who AUTHORIZED and gave the legal opinions that torture is admissible are brought before a court for prosecutions... IF they ( Bush, Cheney, Rice, Ashcroft, Gonzales et al) didn't break any laws, wouldn't
they be acquitted?"
If that's to be the case, I would have to assume that you would want Nancy Pelosi added to the afore mentioned group in the dock. Reports
I'm seeing have her and other key democrat congresspeople being fully briefed on what was going on as early as 2002. While we're at it lets throw in Bill Clinton for kicking off the whole extraordinary rendition program back in 1995.
The idea of rounding up a few key Bush administration officials and making them into raw meat to satisfy the howling of the huffington/kos mob reeks of hypocrisy and partisanship.
g
----- Original Message -----
From: <bear at moscow.com>
To: <jampot at roadrunner.com>; <godshatter at yahoo.com>; <lfalen at turbonet.com>; <bear at moscow.com>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As ye sow, so shall you
> Gary,
>
> I see your point, and no one would say putting a caterpillar in the cell would be torture,
> and
> I've got to think that not having the weekend sleep in wouldn't be either. But what about
> 183
> water boardings of one person? 83 times for another?
>
> One of the keys to what you said how ever is the term "unlawful combatant". An unlawful
> combatant or unprivileged combatant/belligerent is a civilian who directly engages in
> armed
> conflict in violation of International Humanitarian Law (IHL) and may be detained or
> prosecuted
> under the domestic law of the detaining state for such action. Now, that is the law as
> agreed to
> under the International Committee of the Red Cross. Now, the detention and prosecution
> under
> domestic law, in this case US law gets to be interesting.
>
> Is it the policy under domestic US laws to treat prisoners like this? Forget the Sunni or
> Shiites,
> what about the guy from Twin Falls? IF it is ok to do this to under domestic law, it's ok
> to do it
> to ANYONE that is detained and prosecuted.
>
> And as far as a "gaggle of surly Sunni's and snippy Shiites anxious to be released and
> take a
> second shot at killing and maiming Americans", are we talking about them taking shots in
> the
> US, our country or over in Iraq or Afghanistan - THEIR country? I'm sure the colonial
> terrorists
> that were killing British soldiers in Massachusetts felt the same way as the Iraqi and
> Afghani
> combatants feel today.
>
> What I am hoping to see, sooner than later is that the people who AUTHORIZED and gave the
> legal opinions that torture is admissible are brought before a court for prosecutions.
> Remember, one of the most serious parts of the post World War Two prosecutions was the
> nazi
> judges and prosecutors,the people that told Hitler that he wasn't breaking any laws!
>
> IF they ( Bush, Cheney, Rice, Aschcroft, Gonzales et al) didn't break any laws, wouldn't
> they be
> acquitted? Or isn't there any faith in the system that says torture is ok? And at least
> they would
> be getting trials, something denied the majority of the captives at Guantánamo Bay
> Detention
> Camp.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> This seems to me to be a fair question. If it's considered torture to put a
>> guy in a box with a caterpillar, what about a cell with a fellow terrorist?
>> It's really just a matter of degree. If depriving an unlawful combatant of
>> sleep is torture what about not allowing the poor dears to sleep in on the
>> weekends? Stress positions criminal? What about not providing orthopedic
>> queen sized beds and massaging barcoloungers? Pouring water on their ugly
>> mugs too harsh? What about insisting that the prisoners take a monthly
>> shower whether they need it of not?
>>
>> Rape as torture? To be sure although I'll take it over having my skin
>> removed with eyebrow tweezers, being lowered into a chipper shredder up to
>> my navel, being beaten with rods till the number of broken bones exceeds
>> ones I.Q. (I know, I know a few fingers and a rib in my particular case) a
>> week or two of ground glass suppers and battery acid enemas or being rubbed
>> in fat and roasted till your so overcooked the New York Times food critic
>> would send you back to the chef and write a scathing review in the Sunday
>> style edition.
>>
>> Who ever remarked that there ought to be a line over which we do not go is
>> correct. There is a difference between a harsh interrogation and torture. In
>> my opinion we did a pretty fine job of walking that line. Had the
>> interrogators indeed been sadistic torturers and not just asking poignant
>> questions firmly we should be seeing a trail of corpses and cripples, not a
>> gaggle of surly Sunni's and snippy Shiites anxious to be released and take a
>> second shot at killing and maiming Americans. It's my understanding that the
>> interrogation of these criminals resulted in good information and saved
>> lives and the men who brought us that result should be commended, not
>> condemned.
>>
>> g
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <bear at moscow.com>
>> To: "Paul Rumelhart" <godshatter at yahoo.com>; "lfalen" <lfalen at turbonet.com>;
>> <bear at moscow.com>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:28 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As ye sow, so shall you
>>
>>
>> > Roger,
>> >
>> > WHERE do you draw the line as far as "technique" is concerned?
>> > IF the alleged terrorist is a woman, is it ok to rape her till she tells
>> > us about the plot
>> > to bomb
>> > LA?
>> > Or a man for that matter?
>> >
>> > AND remember, IF it's justified for the US to do it, it is justified for
>> > everyone else
>> > too!
>> >
>> > The reason it's referred to as a "slippery slope" is that the only
>> > direction to go is DOWN
>> > HILL!
>> >
>> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
>> >
>> >> That's an extremely dangerous point of view, Roger. How far do you take
>> >> it? It's possible that daily random inspections of citizen's houses by
>> >> SWAT teams could yield some data. Or that torturing every Muslim in
>> >> America would also yield results. The Internet could be used to pass
>> >> encrypted information between terrorist cells, maybe it should be shut
>> >> down? Perhaps a "shoot-on-sight" curfew would help make us safer from
>> >> the threat of terrorism?
>> >>
>> >> I'm tired of this country being run by a bunch of cowards. Draw a moral
>> >> line in the sand, and stick to it. Do what is right because it is
>> >> right, not because it is expedient.
>> >>
>> >> Paul
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> lfalen wrote:
>> >> > Bear
>> >> > You are wrong on this.
>> >> > Because a confession was extracted fron this lady does not mean that
>> >> > she was a spy.
>> > What
>> > we may have done at GITMO had no bearing on how Iran conducts
>> > interrogations. They would
>> > use brutal tactics no matter what we do.
>> >> > As to our security I believe the following:
>> >> > 1. If an interrogator thinks that there is good reason to believe a
>> >> > detainee has
>> > information of an impending attack and does not use what ever means is
>> > necessary to obtain
>> > that information and
>> >> > 2 There is a subsequent attack that results in a loss of life.then
>> >> > 3. Those interrogators should be prosecuted for dereliction of duty.
>> >> > Former CIA Director Casey said that over 50% of the valid information
>> >> > about al-Quaeda
>> > came from detainees and that an attack on L.A was thwarted by information
>> > obtained from
>> > KSM.
>> >> > Roger
>> >> >
>> >> > -----Original message-----
>> >> > From: bear at moscow.cotwo year period? How about ten years?m
>> >> > Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 20:50:18 -0700
>> >> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >> > Subject: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As ye sow, so shall you
>> >> > reep
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> Well, what we have said is fine, is now coming back to bite us.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> American-Iranian journalist Roxana Saberi was sentenced to eight
>> >> >> years' jail on
>> > Saturday
>> >> >> after
>> >> >> being convicted in a secret trial of spying for the United States. Her
>> >> >> Iranian-born
>> >> >> father, Reza
>> >> >> Saberi, says she may have been tricked into a confession, believing
>> >> >> she would be
>> > released
>> >> >> if
>> >> >> she co-operated with the authorities. He said his daughter was so
>> >> >> depressed by her
>> >> >> sentence -
>> >> >> the harshest ever given to a dual national on security charges in
>> >> >> Iran - that she is
>> >> >> threatening
>> >> >> to go on hunger strike.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Will they force feed her like we have force fed the prisoners at
>> >> >> Guantánamo Bay
>> > Detention
>> >> >> Camp when they have gone on hunger strikes? IF they do, what makes us
>> >> >> think we have a
>> >> >> right
>> >> >> to object?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Did they use enhanced interrogation techniques to discover that she
>> >> >> was a spy? And
>> >> >> remember,
>> >> >> she was arrested for SPYING. If she was in the United States could we
>> >> >> have sued
>> > enhanced
>> >> >> interrogation techniques? US Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia
>> >> >> said on BBC Radio
>> > 4
>> >> >> that
>> >> >> since these methods are not intended to punish they do not violate the
>> >> >> Eighth
>> > Amendment
>> > to
>> >> >>
>> >> >> the United States Constitution, barring "cruel and unusual
>> >> >> punishment", and as such
>> > may
>> >
>> >> >> not
>> >> >> be unconstitutional.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Well, we started this dog fight, now we pay. How do we get back on the
>> >> >> moral high
>> > ground
>> >> >> where this kind of behavior from ANY GOVERNMENT is wrong? I believe it
>> >> >> starts with
>> > the
>> >
>> >> >> indictment and arrest of George W. Bush et al. Or don't they think
>> >> >> they'd get a fair
>> >> >> trial? They
>> >> >> sure as hell would get better treatment awaiting trial than they gave!
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ---------------------------------------------
>> >> >> This message was sent by First Step Internet.
>> >> >> http://www.fsr.com/
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
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>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ---------------------------------------------
>> > This message was sent by First Step Internet.
>> > http://www.fsr.com/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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