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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>What fine, brave sentiments. Of course knowing an
OBL/Eric Holder justice department would never allow that to happen does make
that sort of egalitarianism much easier to spout.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>g</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=philosopher.joe@gmail.com href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">Joe
Campbell</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=jampot@roadrunner.com
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">g. crabtree</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=godshatter@yahoo.com
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com>"><godshatter@yahoo.com></A> ; <A
title=lfalen@turbonet.com
href="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com>"><lfalen@turbonet.com></A> ; <A
title=bear@moscow.com
href="mailto:bear@moscow.com>"><bear@moscow.com></A> ; <A
title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com>"><vision2020@moscow.com></A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, April 24, 2009 6:13
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh"
Interrogations -As ye sow, so shall you</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>If Pelosi and Clinton are as guilty as Bush and Cheney, then by all
means, put them on trial, too!<SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="-webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.231373); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.231373)"> </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><BR>Joe Campbell</DIV>
<DIV><BR>On Apr 24, 2009, at 6:03 AM, "g. crabtree" <<A
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">jampot@roadrunner.com</A>>
wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><EM>"What I am hoping to see, sooner than later
is that the people who AUTHORIZED and gave the legal opinions that torture
is admissible are brought before a court for prosecutions... IF they ( Bush,
Cheney, Rice, Ashcroft, Gonzales et al) didn't break any laws,
wouldn't<BR>they be acquitted?"</EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If that's to be the case, I would have to
assume that you would want Nancy Pelosi added to the afore mentioned group
in the dock. Reports </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm seeing have her and other key democrat
congresspeople being fully briefed on what was going on as early as 2002.
While we're at it lets throw in Bill Clinton for kicking off the whole
extraordinary rendition program back in 1995.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The idea of rounding up a few key Bush
administration officials and making them into raw meat to satisfy the
howling of the huffington/kos mob reeks of hypocrisy and
partisanship.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>g</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>----- Original Message ----- </FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>From: <</FONT><A
href="mailto:bear@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>bear@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>To: <</FONT><A
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jampot@roadrunner.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>;
<</FONT><A href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>godshatter@yahoo.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>;
<</FONT><A href="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>lfalen@turbonet.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>;
<</FONT><A href="mailto:bear@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>bear@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>; <</FONT><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:42
PM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh"
Interrogations -As ye sow, so shall you</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><BR><FONT size=2></FONT></FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2>> Gary,<BR>> <BR>> I see your point, and no one would say
putting a caterpillar in the cell would be torture,<BR>> and <BR>>
I've got to think that not having the weekend sleep in wouldn't be either.
But what about<BR>> 183 <BR>> water boardings of one person? 83 times
for another?<BR>> <BR>> One of the keys to what you said how ever is
the term "unlawful combatant". An unlawful <BR>> combatant or
unprivileged combatant/belligerent is a civilian who directly engages
in<BR>> armed <BR>> conflict in violation of International
Humanitarian Law (IHL) and may be detained or<BR>> prosecuted <BR>>
under the domestic law of the detaining state for such action. Now, that is
the law as<BR>> agreed to <BR>> under the International Committee of
the Red Cross. Now, the detention and prosecution<BR>> under <BR>>
domestic law, in this case US law gets to be interesting. <BR>> <BR>>
Is it the policy under domestic US laws to treat prisoners like this? Forget
the Sunni or<BR>> Shiites, <BR>> what about the guy from Twin
Falls? IF it is ok to do this to under domestic law, it's ok<BR>>
to do it <BR>> to ANYONE that is detained and prosecuted.<BR>>
<BR>> And as far as a "gaggle of surly Sunni's and snippy Shiites anxious
to be released and<BR>> take a <BR>> second shot at killing and
maiming Americans", are we talking about them taking shots in<BR>> the
<BR>> US, our country or over in Iraq or Afghanistan - THEIR country? I'm
sure the colonial<BR>> terrorists <BR>> that were killing British
soldiers in Massachusetts felt the same way as the Iraqi and<BR>> Afghani
<BR>> combatants feel today.<BR>> <BR>> What I am hoping to see,
sooner than later is that the people who AUTHORIZED and gave the <BR>>
legal opinions that torture is admissible are brought before a court for
prosecutions. <BR>> Remember, one of the most serious parts of the post
World War Two prosecutions was the<BR>> nazi <BR>> judges and
prosecutors,the people that told Hitler that he wasn't breaking any
laws!<BR>> <BR>> IF they ( Bush, Cheney, Rice, Aschcroft,
Gonzales et al) didn't break any laws, wouldn't<BR>> they be
<BR>> acquitted? Or isn't there any faith in the system that says torture
is ok? And at least<BR>> they would <BR>> be getting trials, something
denied the majority of the captives at Guantánamo Bay<BR>> Detention
<BR>> Camp.<BR>> <BR>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>>
This seems to me to be a fair question. If it's considered torture to put a
<BR>>> guy in a box with a caterpillar, what about a cell with a
fellow terrorist? <BR>>> It's really just a matter of degree. If
depriving an unlawful combatant of <BR>>> sleep is torture what
about not allowing the poor dears to sleep in on the <BR>>> weekends?
Stress positions criminal? What about not providing orthopedic <BR>>>
queen sized beds and massaging barcoloungers? Pouring water on their ugly
<BR>>> mugs too harsh? What about insisting that the prisoners take a
monthly <BR>>> shower whether they need it of not?<BR>>>
<BR>>> Rape as torture? To be sure although I'll take it over
having my skin <BR>>> removed with eyebrow tweezers, being lowered
into a chipper shredder up to <BR>>> my navel, being beaten with rods
till the number of broken bones exceeds <BR>>> ones I.Q. (I
know, I know a few fingers and a rib in my particular case) a <BR>>>
week or two of ground glass suppers and battery acid enemas or being rubbed
<BR>>> in fat and roasted till your so overcooked the New York Times
food critic <BR>>> would send you back to the chef and write a
scathing review in the Sunday <BR>>> style edition.<BR>>>
<BR>>> Who ever remarked that there ought to be a line over which we
do not go is <BR>>> correct. There is a difference between a harsh
interrogation and torture. In <BR>>> my opinion we did a pretty fine
job of walking that line. Had the <BR>>> interrogators indeed been
sadistic torturers and not just asking poignant <BR>>> questions
firmly we should be seeing a trail of corpses and cripples, not a
<BR>>> gaggle of surly Sunni's and snippy Shiites anxious to be
released and take a <BR>>> second shot at killing and maiming
Americans. It's my understanding that the <BR>>> interrogation of
these criminals resulted in good information and saved <BR>>> lives
and the men who brought us that result should be commended, not <BR>>>
condemned.<BR>>> <BR>>> g<BR>>> <BR>>> -----
Original Message ----- <BR>>> From: <</FONT><A
href="mailto:bear@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>bear@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>>>
To: "Paul Rumelhart" <</FONT><A href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com"><FONT
face=Arial size=2>godshatter@yahoo.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>>; "lfalen" <</FONT><A href="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com"><FONT
face=Arial size=2>lfalen@turbonet.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>>; <BR>>> <</FONT><A href="mailto:bear@moscow.com"><FONT
face=Arial size=2>bear@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>;
<</FONT><A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>><BR>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:28 PM<BR>>>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As ye sow, so shall
you<BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> > Roger,<BR>>>
><BR>>> > WHERE do you draw the line as far as "technique" is
concerned?<BR>>> > IF the alleged terrorist is a woman, is it ok to
rape her till she tells <BR>>> > us about the plot<BR>>> >
to bomb<BR>>> > LA?<BR>>> > Or a man for that
matter?<BR>>> ><BR>>> > AND remember, IF it's justified
for the US to do it, it is justified for <BR>>> > everyone
else<BR>>> > too!<BR>>> ><BR>>> > The reason it's
referred to as a "slippery slope" is that the only <BR>>> >
direction to go is DOWN<BR>>> > HILL!<BR>>> ><BR>>>
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>
--<BR>>> ><BR>>> >> That's an extremely dangerous point
of view, Roger. How far do you take<BR>>> >> it?
It's possible that daily random inspections of citizen's houses
by<BR>>> >> SWAT teams could yield some data. Or that
torturing every Muslim in<BR>>> >> America would also yield
results. The Internet could be used to pass<BR>>> >>
encrypted information between terrorist cells, maybe it should be
shut<BR>>> >> down? Perhaps a "shoot-on-sight" curfew
would help make us safer from<BR>>> >> the threat of
terrorism?<BR>>> >><BR>>> >> I'm tired of this
country being run by a bunch of cowards. Draw a moral<BR>>>
>> line in the sand, and stick to it. Do what is right because
it is<BR>>> >> right, not because it is expedient.<BR>>>
>><BR>>> >> Paul<BR>>> >><BR>>>
>><BR>>> >> lfalen wrote:<BR>>> >> >
Bear<BR>>> >> > You are wrong on this.<BR>>> >>
> Because a confession was extracted fron this lady does not mean that
<BR>>> >> > she was a spy.<BR>>> > What<BR>>>
> we may have done at GITMO had no bearing on how Iran conducts
<BR>>> > interrogations. They would<BR>>> > use brutal
tactics no matter what we do.<BR>>> >> > As to our security I
believe the following:<BR>>> >> > 1. If an interrogator
thinks that there is good reason to believe a <BR>>> >> >
detainee has<BR>>> > information of an impending attack and does
not use what ever means is <BR>>> > necessary to obtain<BR>>>
> that information and<BR>>> >> > 2 There is a subsequent
attack that results in a loss of life.then<BR>>> >> > 3.
Those interrogators should be prosecuted for dereliction of
duty.<BR>>> >> > Former CIA Director Casey said that over 50%
of the valid information <BR>>> >> > about
al-Quaeda<BR>>> > came from detainees and that an attack on L.A was
thwarted by information <BR>>> > obtained from<BR>>> >
KSM.<BR>>> >> > Roger<BR>>> >> ><BR>>>
>> > -----Original message-----<BR>>> >> > From:
</FONT><A href="mailto:bear@moscow.cotwo"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>bear@moscow.cotwo</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2> year
period? How about ten years?m<BR>>> >> > Date: Wed, 22
Apr 2009 20:50:18 -0700<BR>>> >> > To: </FONT><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>>>
>> > Subject: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As ye sow, so
shall you <BR>>> >> > reep<BR>>> >>
><BR>>> >> ><BR>>> >> >> Well, what we
have said is fine, is now coming back to bite us.<BR>>> >>
>><BR>>> >> >> American-Iranian journalist
Roxana Saberi was sentenced to eight <BR>>> >> >>
years' jail on<BR>>> > Saturday<BR>>> >> >>
after<BR>>> >> >> being convicted in a secret trial of
spying for the United States. Her <BR>>> >> >>
Iranian-born<BR>>> >> >> father, Reza<BR>>> >>
>> Saberi, says she may have been tricked into a confession, believing
<BR>>> >> >> she would be<BR>>> >
released<BR>>> >> >> if<BR>>> >> >> she
co-operated with the authorities. He said his daughter was so <BR>>>
>> >> depressed by her<BR>>> >> >> sentence
-<BR>>> >> >> the harshest ever given to a dual national
on security charges in <BR>>> >> >> Iran - that she
is<BR>>> >> >> threatening<BR>>> >> >>
to go on hunger strike.<BR>>> >> >><BR>>> >>
>> Will they force feed her like we have force fed the prisoners at
<BR>>> >> >> Guantánamo Bay<BR>>> >
Detention<BR>>> >> >> Camp when they have gone on hunger
strikes? IF they do, what makes us <BR>>> >> >> think we
have a<BR>>> >> >> right<BR>>> >> >> to
object?<BR>>> >> >><BR>>> >> >> Did they
use enhanced interrogation techniques to discover that she <BR>>>
>> >> was a spy? And<BR>>> >> >>
remember,<BR>>> >> >> she was arrested for SPYING. If she
was in the United States could we <BR>>> >> >> have
sued<BR>>> > enhanced<BR>>> >> >> interrogation
techniques? US Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia <BR>>>
>> >> said on BBC Radio<BR>>> > 4<BR>>> >>
>> that<BR>>> >> >> since these methods are not
intended to punish they do not violate the <BR>>> >> >>
Eighth<BR>>> > Amendment<BR>>> > to<BR>>> >>
>><BR>>> >> >> the United States Constitution,
barring "cruel and unusual <BR>>> >> >> punishment", and
as such<BR>>> > may<BR>>> ><BR>>> >> >>
not<BR>>> >> >> be unconstitutional.<BR>>> >>
>><BR>>> >> >> Well, we started this dog fight, now
we pay. How do we get back on the <BR>>> >> >> moral
high<BR>>> > ground<BR>>> >> >> where this kind
of behavior from ANY GOVERNMENT is wrong? I believe it <BR>>> >>
>> starts with<BR>>> > the<BR>>> ><BR>>>
>> >> indictment and arrest of George W. Bush et al. Or don't
they think <BR>>> >> >> they'd get a fair<BR>>>
>> >> trial? They<BR>>> >> >> sure as hell
would get better treatment awaiting trial than they gave!<BR>>>
>> >><BR>>> >> >><BR>>> >>
>><BR>>> >> >>
---------------------------------------------<BR>>> >> >>
This message was sent by First Step Internet.<BR>>> >>
>>
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size=2>http://www.fsr.com/</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>>>
>> >><BR>>> >> >><BR>>> >>
>><BR>>> >> >><BR>>> >>
>><BR>>> >> ><BR>>> >> > <BR>>
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>> >
</FONT><A href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>>> >> > <BR>>
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