[Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As ye sow, so shall you
Joe Campbell
philosopher.joe at gmail.com
Fri Apr 24 06:13:05 PDT 2009
If Pelosi and Clinton are as guilty as Bush and Cheney, then by all
means, put them on trial, too!
Joe Campbell
On Apr 24, 2009, at 6:03 AM, "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
wrote:
> "What I am hoping to see, sooner than later is that the people who
> AUTHORIZED and gave the legal opinions that torture is admissible
> are brought before a court for prosecutions... IF they ( Bush,
> Cheney, Rice, Ashcroft, Gonzales et al) didn't break any laws,
> wouldn't
> they be acquitted?"
>
> If that's to be the case, I would have to assume that you would want
> Nancy Pelosi added to the afore mentioned group in the dock. Reports
> I'm seeing have her and other key democrat congresspeople being
> fully briefed on what was going on as early as 2002. While we're at
> it lets throw in Bill Clinton for kicking off the whole
> extraordinary rendition program back in 1995.
>
> The idea of rounding up a few key Bush administration officials and
> making them into raw meat to satisfy the howling of the huffington/
> kos mob reeks of hypocrisy and partisanship.
>
> g
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <bear at moscow.com>
> To: <jampot at roadrunner.com>; <godshatter at yahoo.com>; <lfalen at turbonet.com
> >; <bear at moscow.com>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As ye sow, so
> shall you
>
> > Gary,
> >
> > I see your point, and no one would say putting a caterpillar in
> the cell would be torture,
> > and
> > I've got to think that not having the weekend sleep in wouldn't be
> either. But what about
> > 183
> > water boardings of one person? 83 times for another?
> >
> > One of the keys to what you said how ever is the term "unlawful
> combatant". An unlawful
> > combatant or unprivileged combatant/belligerent is a civilian who
> directly engages in
> > armed
> > conflict in violation of International Humanitarian Law (IHL) and
> may be detained or
> > prosecuted
> > under the domestic law of the detaining state for such action.
> Now, that is the law as
> > agreed to
> > under the International Committee of the Red Cross. Now, the
> detention and prosecution
> > under
> > domestic law, in this case US law gets to be interesting.
> >
> > Is it the policy under domestic US laws to treat prisoners like
> this? Forget the Sunni or
> > Shiites,
> > what about the guy from Twin Falls? IF it is ok to do this to
> under domestic law, it's ok
> > to do it
> > to ANYONE that is detained and prosecuted.
> >
> > And as far as a "gaggle of surly Sunni's and snippy Shiites
> anxious to be released and
> > take a
> > second shot at killing and maiming Americans", are we talking
> about them taking shots in
> > the
> > US, our country or over in Iraq or Afghanistan - THEIR country?
> I'm sure the colonial
> > terrorists
> > that were killing British soldiers in Massachusetts felt the same
> way as the Iraqi and
> > Afghani
> > combatants feel today.
> >
> > What I am hoping to see, sooner than later is that the people who
> AUTHORIZED and gave the
> > legal opinions that torture is admissible are brought before a
> court for prosecutions.
> > Remember, one of the most serious parts of the post World War Two
> prosecutions was the
> > nazi
> > judges and prosecutors,the people that told Hitler that he wasn't
> breaking any laws!
> >
> > IF they ( Bush, Cheney, Rice, Aschcroft, Gonzales et al) didn't
> break any laws, wouldn't
> > they be
> > acquitted? Or isn't there any faith in the system that says
> torture is ok? And at least
> > they would
> > be getting trials, something denied the majority of the captives
> at Guantánamo Bay
> > Detention
> > Camp.
> >
> >
> ---
> ---
> ---
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> This seems to me to be a fair question. If it's considered
> torture to put a
> >> guy in a box with a caterpillar, what about a cell with a fellow
> terrorist?
> >> It's really just a matter of degree. If depriving an unlawful
> combatant of
> >> sleep is torture what about not allowing the poor dears to sleep
> in on the
> >> weekends? Stress positions criminal? What about not providing
> orthopedic
> >> queen sized beds and massaging barcoloungers? Pouring water on
> their ugly
> >> mugs too harsh? What about insisting that the prisoners take a
> monthly
> >> shower whether they need it of not?
> >>
> >> Rape as torture? To be sure although I'll take it over having my
> skin
> >> removed with eyebrow tweezers, being lowered into a chipper
> shredder up to
> >> my navel, being beaten with rods till the number of broken bones
> exceeds
> >> ones I.Q. (I know, I know a few fingers and a rib in my
> particular case) a
> >> week or two of ground glass suppers and battery acid enemas or
> being rubbed
> >> in fat and roasted till your so overcooked the New York Times
> food critic
> >> would send you back to the chef and write a scathing review in
> the Sunday
> >> style edition.
> >>
> >> Who ever remarked that there ought to be a line over which we do
> not go is
> >> correct. There is a difference between a harsh interrogation and
> torture. In
> >> my opinion we did a pretty fine job of walking that line. Had the
> >> interrogators indeed been sadistic torturers and not just asking
> poignant
> >> questions firmly we should be seeing a trail of corpses and
> cripples, not a
> >> gaggle of surly Sunni's and snippy Shiites anxious to be released
> and take a
> >> second shot at killing and maiming Americans. It's my
> understanding that the
> >> interrogation of these criminals resulted in good information and
> saved
> >> lives and the men who brought us that result should be commended,
> not
> >> condemned.
> >>
> >> g
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: <bear at moscow.com>
> >> To: "Paul Rumelhart" <godshatter at yahoo.com>; "lfalen" <lfalen at turbonet.com
> >;
> >> <bear at moscow.com>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:28 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As ye sow, so
> shall you
> >>
> >>
> >> > Roger,
> >> >
> >> > WHERE do you draw the line as far as "technique" is concerned?
> >> > IF the alleged terrorist is a woman, is it ok to rape her till
> she tells
> >> > us about the plot
> >> > to bomb
> >> > LA?
> >> > Or a man for that matter?
> >> >
> >> > AND remember, IF it's justified for the US to do it, it is
> justified for
> >> > everyone else
> >> > too!
> >> >
> >> > The reason it's referred to as a "slippery slope" is that the
> only
> >> > direction to go is DOWN
> >> > HILL!
> >> >
> >> >
> ---
> ---
> ---
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> >> >
> >> >> That's an extremely dangerous point of view, Roger. How far
> do you take
> >> >> it? It's possible that daily random inspections of citizen's
> houses by
> >> >> SWAT teams could yield some data. Or that torturing every
> Muslim in
> >> >> America would also yield results. The Internet could be used
> to pass
> >> >> encrypted information between terrorist cells, maybe it should
> be shut
> >> >> down? Perhaps a "shoot-on-sight" curfew would help make us
> safer from
> >> >> the threat of terrorism?
> >> >>
> >> >> I'm tired of this country being run by a bunch of cowards.
> Draw a moral
> >> >> line in the sand, and stick to it. Do what is right because
> it is
> >> >> right, not because it is expedient.
> >> >>
> >> >> Paul
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> lfalen wrote:
> >> >> > Bear
> >> >> > You are wrong on this.
> >> >> > Because a confession was extracted fron this lady does not
> mean that
> >> >> > she was a spy.
> >> > What
> >> > we may have done at GITMO had no bearing on how Iran conducts
> >> > interrogations. They would
> >> > use brutal tactics no matter what we do.
> >> >> > As to our security I believe the following:
> >> >> > 1. If an interrogator thinks that there is good reason to
> believe a
> >> >> > detainee has
> >> > information of an impending attack and does not use what ever
> means is
> >> > necessary to obtain
> >> > that information and
> >> >> > 2 There is a subsequent attack that results in a loss of
> life.then
> >> >> > 3. Those interrogators should be prosecuted for dereliction
> of duty.
> >> >> > Former CIA Director Casey said that over 50% of the valid
> information
> >> >> > about al-Quaeda
> >> > came from detainees and that an attack on L.A was thwarted by
> information
> >> > obtained from
> >> > KSM.
> >> >> > Roger
> >> >> >
> >> >> > -----Original message-----
> >> >> > From: bear at moscow.cotwo year period? How about ten years?m
> >> >> > Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 20:50:18 -0700
> >> >> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> >> > Subject: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As ye sow, so
> shall you
> >> >> > reep
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Well, what we have said is fine, is now coming back to bite
> us.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> American-Iranian journalist Roxana Saberi was sentenced
> to eight
> >> >> >> years' jail on
> >> > Saturday
> >> >> >> after
> >> >> >> being convicted in a secret trial of spying for the United
> States. Her
> >> >> >> Iranian-born
> >> >> >> father, Reza
> >> >> >> Saberi, says she may have been tricked into a confession,
> believing
> >> >> >> she would be
> >> > released
> >> >> >> if
> >> >> >> she co-operated with the authorities. He said his daughter
> was so
> >> >> >> depressed by her
> >> >> >> sentence -
> >> >> >> the harshest ever given to a dual national on security
> charges in
> >> >> >> Iran - that she is
> >> >> >> threatening
> >> >> >> to go on hunger strike.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Will they force feed her like we have force fed the
> prisoners at
> >> >> >> Guantánamo Bay
> >> > Detention
> >> >> >> Camp when they have gone on hunger strikes? IF they do,
> what makes us
> >> >> >> think we have a
> >> >> >> right
> >> >> >> to object?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Did they use enhanced interrogation techniques to discover
> that she
> >> >> >> was a spy? And
> >> >> >> remember,
> >> >> >> she was arrested for SPYING. If she was in the United
> States could we
> >> >> >> have sued
> >> > enhanced
> >> >> >> interrogation techniques? US Supreme Court Justice Antonin
> Scalia
> >> >> >> said on BBC Radio
> >> > 4
> >> >> >> that
> >> >> >> since these methods are not intended to punish they do not
> violate the
> >> >> >> Eighth
> >> > Amendment
> >> > to
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> the United States Constitution, barring "cruel and unusual
> >> >> >> punishment", and as such
> >> > may
> >> >
> >> >> >> not
> >> >> >> be unconstitutional.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Well, we started this dog fight, now we pay. How do we get
> back on the
> >> >> >> moral high
> >> > ground
> >> >> >> where this kind of behavior from ANY GOVERNMENT is wrong? I
> believe it
> >> >> >> starts with
> >> > the
> >> >
> >> >> >> indictment and arrest of George W. Bush et al. Or don't
> they think
> >> >> >> they'd get a fair
> >> >> >> trial? They
> >> >> >> sure as hell would get better treatment awaiting trial than
> they gave!
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------
> >> >> >> This message was sent by First Step Internet.
> >> >> >> http://www.fsr.com/
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
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> >> >> >
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> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ---------------------------------------------
> >> > This message was sent by First Step Internet.
> >> > http://www.fsr.com/
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> ---
> ---
> ---
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -
> >>
> >>
> >> > =======================================================
> >> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> > http://www.fsr.net
> >> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> > =======================================================
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------
> > This message was sent by First Step Internet.
> > http://www.fsr.com/
> >
> >
> >
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
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> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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