[Vision2020] [Bulk] Say What? Everyone Deserves Death.

[Paul Rumelhart]

I think that if someone has to resort to using Donovan's userid to make 
their point, then either they are afraid to debate in public or they are 
afraid that what they say will be taken out of context because of who 
they are.  Either way, I'm more interested in the topics being debated 
than I am in the provenance of the ideas. 

If someone or someones are hiding behind Donovan's skirts (not that 
Donovan's female, or that he cross dresses - I'm just all out of 
metaphors), I hope that some day they can grow a pair and come out and 
talk to us using their own email accounts.

I agree that it's deceptive, if it is in fact occurring.  At least they 
are not forging similar looking email accounts like the person (whoever 
it was) that used to pose as J Ford every now and then.

It doesn't really matter much to me, as I've learned that whoever is 
posting using Donovan's account (which I'm still simply assuming is 
Donovan himself) is a troll, although maybe inadvertently.  I've been 
bitten, and now I'm pretty much refusing to go for the bait.  The only 
thing I've added to the debate (aside from this email) is a hopefully 
helpful page on how to read email headers.

Paul

Ted Moffett wrote:
> Donovan Arnold, or whoever, wrote:
>  
> http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2008-May/053886.html
>  
> I think everyone deserves death Joe. As everyone is a sinner.  But 
> only through the grace of God and the sacrifice of Jesus do we live.
> --------------
> This statement represents the kind of thinking that makes religious 
> cults dangerous, no matter what religion is supporting this extremism.
> --------------
> Paul wrote:
>  
> http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2008-May/053844.html
>  
> I just figure that it doesn't matter much if Donovan is one person, a
> committee, multiple personalities, a hive mind, a front for a
> corporation, a demon host, an AI, or a couple of local church members. 
> If he says something idiotic, it's still idiotic and if he makes a good
> point it's still a good point.
> ------------------
> Paul, your approach to "Donovan's" posts apparently is tolerant of 
> those who antagonize and provoke, while perhaps hiding who they are on 
> Vision2020.  It does matter if Vision2020 participants 
> are misrepresenting who they are, or allow others to hijack their 
> identity.  It creates a climate on the list that does not encourage 
> honest forthright participation by sincere players, and undermines 
> fact and logic based discussion, when the bogus (or even real) 
>  identity distorts what people assert, on a routine basis, changes 
> their point of view, seemingly at random, deliberately to create 
> confusion, it appears, and indulges in juvenile personal attacks, 
> wasting posting space with this nonsense.  Those posting under 
> Donovan's name, or even if Donovan is the author of all this 
> confusion, represents an effort to obfuscate honest debate and dialog, 
> to poison Vision2020, in my opinion.
>  
> Those who misrepresent who they are on Vision2020, or let their e-mail 
> account be hijacked by others, should be ignored, in most cases, even 
> if they make a good point. 
>  
> Below is an "Off List" e-mail on this subject that I reconsidered 
> regarding posting it to the list:
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: *Ted Moffett* <starbliss at gmail.com <mailto:starbliss at gmail.com>>
> Date: May 12, 2008 12:29 AM
> Subject: Off List: Re: [Vision2020] The Fetus is Not a Baby and is not 
> a Person
> To: deb <debismith at moscow.com <mailto:debismith at moscow.com>>
>
> Off List
>  
> Deb-
>  
> Exactly. 
>  
> Yet, Keely, Joe C., Chas, et. al. must know this, yet they keep 
> engaging with "Donovan" in what seem to me to be pointless dialog.  Is 
> this to find a focal point for debate, provide entertainment to keep 
> Vision2020 engaging (yellow journalism sells), offer Donovan their 
> "help?" 
>  
> Donovan sometimes makes good points.  I have occasionally responded to 
> his posts.  But this recent nonsense, as sometimes in the past, is 
> over the top.  I guess if it is true that others are posting under 
> Donovan's name, then the responses are aimed at whoever they are.  Why 
> give the ghost writer reinforcement by responding?  This is perhaps an 
> encouragement for "bad" list serve behavior.  Ghost writers should be 
> ignored, I think, if it is known this is occurring.  Some might say 
> however, that insults and nonsense on the list should be responded to, 
> even if from idiots or ghost writers, to now allow it to pass 
> unchallenged.
>  
> Sometimes it seems Donovan is deliberately making himself too easy a 
> target, to provoke responses.
>  
> I don't want to post as Vision2020 psychiatrist, like some do.  This I 
> find laughable and offensive, given that no responsible professional 
> psychiatrist would do therapy on a public list serve, given that this 
> could do real harm to a truly pathological personality.  And as far as 
> I know, none of those responding to Donovan are psychologists or 
> psychiatrists.  Talk about needing to stop the "unqualified 
> pronouncements" as Chas phrased it.  He should not psychoanalyse 
> Donovan on Vision2020, as he has done, it seems to me...
>  
> Anyway, your post expressed what I have been thinking, but did not 
> post to the list... Trying to moderate Vision2020 is like herding cats...
>  
> Ted
>  
> On 5/11/08, *deb* <debismith at moscow.com <mailto:debismith at moscow.com>> 
> wrote:
>
>     Once again, the V is sucked into replies to the "Donovan" persona.
>     Please,
>     as I have pleaded with all my friends on the V many times over the
>     past 4
>     years, BOZO filter this guy. Stop replying, stop giving the lunatic
>     credance, and stop letting him manage you all into being angry at
>     someone
>     who only deserves our pity...
>     Debi R-S
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     From: "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com <mailto:thansen at moscow.com>>
>     To: "keely emerinemix" <kjajmix1 at msn.com
>     <mailto:kjajmix1 at msn.com>>; "Donovan Arnold"
>     <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
>     <mailto:donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>>; "Joe Campbell"
>     <joekc at adelphia.net <mailto:joekc at adelphia.net>>; "Vision
>     2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>>;
>     "Ralph Nielsen" <nielsen at uidaho.edu <mailto:nielsen at uidaho.edu>>
>     Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 3:58 PM
>     Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The Fetus is Not a Baby and is not a Person
>
>
>     > "I never first strike.  But I will attack back with full force."
>     > - Donovan J. Arnold (or is it Doudalchri Wilcourwit?) on May 11,
>     2008
>     >
>     > The question then becomes . . . What would God do in retribution
>     to you
>     > and your sinful attitude toward your fellow man, Arnold?
>     >
>     > Perhaps . . .
>     >
>     > "God Will F*ck You Up"
>     > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA-pWKRyyG8
>     >
>     > I just know this will lift the lid off a few well stirred stink
>     pots.
>     >
>     > Keep them cards and letters coming.
>     >
>     > Tom Hansen
>     > Moscow,
>     > Idaho
>     >
>     > 
>