[Vision2020] Iowa caucus stuff

Fri Jan 4 09:07:18 PST 2008

Finally, Gary.  Something we have in common -- neither of us are Bible scholars.  But since that's not enough for a meaningful friendship, I'll answer the rest of your post.  Your analogy of the thief breaking into my home is entirely inconsistent.   

First, though, a note here on respecting sovereign borders -- this is one of the most ironic points in the argument against illegal immigrants.  A review of history would offer evidence that much of what we call Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona were largely part of Mexico until U.S. interests -- would "hegemony" be too kind?  "Invasion"? -- scooped up the northern states.  Arguments of the U.S.A.'s sovereign nation status ring a little hollow, too, considering the enormous land grab from indigenous people that we call Colonial America and the Western Expansion.

Undocumented workers who cross over looking for, and finding, paid work
are not stealing from you, nor have they "entered your  home" to do so.  While it's true that some of your tax money does pay for health care for people who have immigrated illegally (their children, usually -- adults have to keep working through illness), your tax burden is also reduced by the amount of taxes immigrants pay when they buy things to feed, clothe, and secure their families here.   Immigrants pay more and buy more than they receive from social services. The notion that all illegal immigrants can and should be rounded up and deported is as absurd as it is cruel, and you'll notice that just about the only voices calling out for such an idea are people who have no contact, really, with anyone whose status is illegal.  Landlords, employers, and businesses recognize that the overall economic good brought about by 12 million workers and consumers, the majority of whom are decent people trying to support their families and themselves, more than argues for the devastation to business when an entire population is shuttled out overnight.  They've not "broken into your home," Gary, as much as they've moved in next to you.  If they make it, they make it -- but you're not suffering from their being there, although some of our more racist, nativist readers might, just because they couldn't get in on the anti-immigrant sentiment of the early 20th century, I suppose.

That said, my comments about the Gospel stand.  I understand some of the opposition to illegal immigration, but the argument has become much less against immigration than it is against immigrants.  And for religious  people to settle on that without an examination of issues or conscience is deplorable.

Keely

From: jampot at roadrunner.com
To: kjajmix1 at msn.com; privatejf32 at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Iowa caucus stuff
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 06:57:29 -0800

It seems to me that your notion of the Gospel with regard 
to illegal aliens is flawed. Do you believe that should a thief break into your 
home it's your obligation to give him a hot meal and pay to have the hand he cut 
breaking your window stitched up? Maybe some dental care for him and his family 
while he's there? Heck as long as he's sitting on your sofa why not arrange for 
a little in state tuition at the local diploma mill and offer to pay 
expenses not covered by grants. By my reckoning it's not Christian charity if my 
compassion is forcibly extracted at the point of a gun, be it in the form 
of increased taxes by the government or an actual felon with a firearm. Charity 
should be an individual thing from the heart. Also, I'm no biblical scholar but 
I'm fairly sure that the Bible does not preclude a sovereign country having 
secure borders.

g

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: 
  keely emerinemix 

  To: J Ford ; vision2020 at moscow.com 
  Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 7:06 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Iowa caucus 
  stuff

My point wasn't that doctrine has a place in a presidential 
  campaign, but that I thought it was sad that so many conservative evangelical 
  Christians find confirmation and comfort in their faith by being pissed off at 
  undocumented immigrants.  

Keely

    From: privatejf32 at hotmail.com
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Thu, 
    3 Jan 2008 19:03:14 -0800
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Iowa caucus 
    stuff

    I have to ask - why would any of the Gospel be part of a candidate's 
    priority?  I mean, if we get in a fundamentalist such as Doug - that 
    just sets me teeth on edge.  

No matter what candidate wins in 
    the end, it should be the benefit of the entire country, no matter a 
    person's income, that is priority.  We should be concentrating on 
    getting our country up and running again, getting OUR kids fed, OUR people's 
    medical needs met, OUR country's goods sold, etc.  The more money and 
    efforts we expend on the rest of the world just seems to be going down the 
    drain and the only return we are seeing is OUR people constantly being 
    targeted for killing, maiming, destruction of all sorts and measures.  

Our country must get back to protecting what's ours and then we can 
    offer help to those in other parts of the world with what's 
    left.

Sorry for the hard-nose approach, but really, after fighting 
    and seeing my friends die for OUR country only to see the 
    Administration/Powers-that-be give it all way, is getting old and needs to 
    stop if we are to survive this century in one piece.  

J 
    :]

      From: kjajmix1 at msn.com
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 
      2008 18:04:45 -0800
Subject: [Vision2020] Iowa caucus stuff

      CNN projects Mike Huckabee as the GOP caucus winner in Iowa, followed by 
      Romney, then Thompson.  On the Democratic side, Edwards, Obama and 
      Clinton are fairly evenly matched and only Bill Richardson has made any 
      statistically notable waves among the second-tier candidates.

I've 
      been for Edwards since he announced, and while I would be  happy with 
      any of the Democrats (except for Kucinich and Gravel), I would be ecstatic 
      if we had an Edwards/Obama or Edwards/Richardson, or an Obama/???, ticket 
      in 2008.  And two great things happen on January 20, 2009 -- my son 
      turns 20 (he was born on the final day of the Reagan administration) and 
      the days of the Bush presidency are no more.  

On a final 
      note, I'm dismayed that several commentators have noted that the GOP 
      voters who identify as evangelicals consider illegal immigration their top 
      issue.  It would be wonderful if their top concern was justice and 
      opportunity for the poor, but I'm guessing that the gospel of Glenn Beck, 
      Lou Dobbs, Laura Ingraham and Pat Buchanan has trumped the Gospel of that 
      other guy . . . 

Keely

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