[Vision2020] Iowa caucus stuff
g. crabtree
jampot at roadrunner.com
Fri Jan 4 17:38:38 PST 2008
Borders are the dominion of those who have the power to create them, hold them, and enforce them. I'm not sure what the fact that the US/Mexican border has shifted several times since 1819 and the Adams/Onis treaty with Spain has to do with presidential candidates having a policy regarding enforcing the law at the current border, much less the inevitability of western Europeans displacing the stone age indigs during our countries formative years.
I don't remember saying anything about "rounding up and deporting" illegal aliens and I don't recall any of the candidates in question espousing any such plan either. The simple notion that we should have some level of control over our borders is hardly the antithesis of an evangelicals understanding of the Gospel in fact, I think it would be quite the opposite. It would seem to me to be much more humane to tightly control the border and allow an orderly flow of workers in from the south. This would prevent them from risking their lives on dangerous desert/river crossings, deadly dealings with verminous coyotes and drug dealers, and assorted forms of victimization that arise from living in the shadows once they are here.
I'm sorry if you didn't care for my breaking into your home analogy but, there is no question but what your "undocumented immigrants" start off their sojourn in this country by committing a crime and it's not a given that illegals bring more to this country then they take. The health care crisis in the border states puts your assertion that these folks bring nothing but "overall economic good" into question. The fact that huge amounts of US dollars flow back into Mexico (est. 20 Billion in 2005) belies your claim with regard to their being good little consumers who benefit our economy. If these folks want to follow the rules and "move in next to me" great. I like mariachi music and they will be plenty welcome at the neighborhood picinics. If they make it I'll be happy but please don't make me out to be the bad guy if I'm not willing to overlook violations of the law and am somewhat reluctant to subsidize their stab at the American dream to the detriment of those who played by the rules.
g
----- Original Message -----
From: keely emerinemix
To: g. crabtree ; J Ford ; vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 9:07 AM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Iowa caucus stuff
Finally, Gary. Something we have in common -- neither of us are Bible scholars. But since that's not enough for a meaningful friendship, I'll answer the rest of your post. Your analogy of the thief breaking into my home is entirely inconsistent.
First, though, a note here on respecting sovereign borders -- this is one of the most ironic points in the argument against illegal immigrants. A review of history would offer evidence that much of what we call Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona were largely part of Mexico until U.S. interests -- would "hegemony" be too kind? "Invasion"? -- scooped up the northern states. Arguments of the U.S.A.'s sovereign nation status ring a little hollow, too, considering the enormous land grab from indigenous people that we call Colonial America and the Western Expansion.
Undocumented workers who cross over looking for, and finding, paid work are not stealing from you, nor have they "entered your home" to do so. While it's true that some of your tax money does pay for health care for people who have immigrated illegally (their children, usually -- adults have to keep working through illness), your tax burden is also reduced by the amount of taxes immigrants pay when they buy things to feed, clothe, and secure their families here. Immigrants pay more and buy more than they receive from social services. The notion that all illegal immigrants can and should be rounded up and deported is as absurd as it is cruel, and you'll notice that just about the only voices calling out for such an idea are people who have no contact, really, with anyone whose status is illegal. Landlords, employers, and businesses recognize that the overall economic good brought about by 12 million workers and consumers, the majority of whom are decent people trying to support their families and themselves, more than argues for the devastation to business when an entire population is shuttled out overnight. They've not "broken into your home," Gary, as much as they've moved in next to you. If they make it, they make it -- but you're not suffering from their being there, although some of our more racist, nativist readers might, just because they couldn't get in on the anti-immigrant sentiment of the early 20th century, I suppose.
That said, my comments about the Gospel stand. I understand some of the opposition to illegal immigration, but the argument has become much less against immigration than it is against immigrants. And for religious people to settle on that without an examination of issues or conscience is deplorable.
Keely
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From: jampot at roadrunner.com
To: kjajmix1 at msn.com; privatejf32 at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Iowa caucus stuff
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 06:57:29 -0800
It seems to me that your notion of the Gospel with regard to illegal aliens is flawed. Do you believe that should a thief break into your home it's your obligation to give him a hot meal and pay to have the hand he cut breaking your window stitched up? Maybe some dental care for him and his family while he's there? Heck as long as he's sitting on your sofa why not arrange for a little in state tuition at the local diploma mill and offer to pay expenses not covered by grants. By my reckoning it's not Christian charity if my compassion is forcibly extracted at the point of a gun, be it in the form of increased taxes by the government or an actual felon with a firearm. Charity should be an individual thing from the heart. Also, I'm no biblical scholar but I'm fairly sure that the Bible does not preclude a sovereign country having secure borders.
g
----- Original Message -----
From: keely emerinemix
To: J Ford ; vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Iowa caucus stuff
My point wasn't that doctrine has a place in a presidential campaign, but that I thought it was sad that so many conservative evangelical Christians find confirmation and comfort in their faith by being pissed off at undocumented immigrants.
Keely
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From: privatejf32 at hotmail.com
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 19:03:14 -0800
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Iowa caucus stuff
I have to ask - why would any of the Gospel be part of a candidate's priority? I mean, if we get in a fundamentalist such as Doug - that just sets me teeth on edge.
No matter what candidate wins in the end, it should be the benefit of the entire country, no matter a person's income, that is priority. We should be concentrating on getting our country up and running again, getting OUR kids fed, OUR people's medical needs met, OUR country's goods sold, etc. The more money and efforts we expend on the rest of the world just seems to be going down the drain and the only return we are seeing is OUR people constantly being targeted for killing, maiming, destruction of all sorts and measures.
Our country must get back to protecting what's ours and then we can offer help to those in other parts of the world with what's left.
Sorry for the hard-nose approach, but really, after fighting and seeing my friends die for OUR country only to see the Administration/Powers-that-be give it all way, is getting old and needs to stop if we are to survive this century in one piece.
J :]
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From: kjajmix1 at msn.com
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 18:04:45 -0800
Subject: [Vision2020] Iowa caucus stuff
CNN projects Mike Huckabee as the GOP caucus winner in Iowa, followed by Romney, then Thompson. On the Democratic side, Edwards, Obama and Clinton are fairly evenly matched and only Bill Richardson has made any statistically notable waves among the second-tier candidates.
I've been for Edwards since he announced, and while I would be happy with any of the Democrats (except for Kucinich and Gravel), I would be ecstatic if we had an Edwards/Obama or Edwards/Richardson, or an Obama/???, ticket in 2008. And two great things happen on January 20, 2009 -- my son turns 20 (he was born on the final day of the Reagan administration) and the days of the Bush presidency are no more.
On a final note, I'm dismayed that several commentators have noted that the GOP voters who identify as evangelicals consider illegal immigration their top issue. It would be wonderful if their top concern was justice and opportunity for the poor, but I'm guessing that the gospel of Glenn Beck, Lou Dobbs, Laura Ingraham and Pat Buchanan has trumped the Gospel of that other guy . . .
Keely
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