[Vision2020] Support for veterans

Mon Feb 18 06:28:31 PST 2008

I NEVER stated that you thought soldiers who have PTSD should not be treated!  Never!

What I did and do say is that you seem to feel soldiers are at fault for getting PTSD and that simply is not the case, in most if not all circumstances.  I NEVER IMPLIED OR SAID YOU DON'T BELIEVE THEY SHOULD NOT RECEIVE CARE!

So get off that.

J  :]

> Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:46:04 -0800
> From: tiedye at turbonet.com
> To: mattd2107 at hotmail.com
> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Support for veterans
> 
> Hi Matt, yes I hope we can find common ground.  Sorry it took me so long 
> to reply I had to move a radio station (again).
> 
> I did not mean to imply that our solders "bring on their own 
> suffering".  I am trying to say that they suffer such debilitating 
> images of the horrific events they witnessed because of the internal 
> guilt of knowing that they participated in creating those events in the 
> first place.  (I still didn't say that very well, but I'm at a loss of 
> how to say it better right now)
> 
> Whether you are pointing a gun, treating the injured, hauling supplies, 
> or even staying home and paying taxes, you are still participating in 
> the atrocities.
> 
> I hold no fault to the solders, I see them as victims of the same evil 
> forces.  And I NEVER meant to imply that they should not receive help 
> (as JF seems to think).  Conversely, I would advocate for the best 
> mental (and physical) health care that we could offer, for the rest of 
> their lives.  (Of course I would advocate that for everyone)
> 
> It starts long before they join the military or go to kill people, it 
> starts with the mistaken concept that patriotism is a "good thing".  
> This strange concept is drummed into our brains from birth.
> 
> The best words I've ever heard challenging patriotism were by Emma Goldman.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz-0Shljq88
> 
> -
> And for the record, and to answer a few of the other responses.  Yes I'm 
> a veteran, I served in the Navy for six years in the 80's, I climbed to 
> an E6.  I never saw any kind of action while serving (I've never seen 
> anything horrific in my live, except in pictures).  When I enlisted I 
> vowed to myself that if a Vietnam type situation developed while I was 
> on active duty that I would not participate, one way or another.
> 
> I base my opinion about the guilt thing mostly from some interviews with 
> Vietnam vets that I've heard on progressive radio.  You won't hear that 
> sort of interview on the mainstream media who make a HUGE PROFIT from wars.
> 
> Regarding my definition a "human": I do not believe that if you train 
> some hairless ape to wear clothes, take a shower, drive to work, and 
> turn on the brainwashing device, that said creature is necessarily a 
> "human".  I haven't since I read the Gom Jabber scene in the book Dune 
> back in '74.   I do not know exactly where I draw the line or if it's 
> even a line, but I heard a psychologist once say that a full one quarter 
> of our population simply lacks the trait of empathy, it might be 
> somewhere around there.  Lately I've been referring to a segment of our 
> population as Ferengi (from Star Trek) since they seem to care more 
> about profit then anything else. 
> 
> Ted, I'll answer your question about what is a "just" or legal war 
> later.  But here's a clue to part of it: who has the power to make war 
> in our country?
> 
> Dave
> 
> 
> Matt Decker wrote:
> > Chas,
> >
> > Yes PSTD has been around forever. I am focusing on the USA side of it 
> > though. To assume that PSTD is a result of a soldiers actions, seems 
> > to me a little naive. There are many documented cases of soldiers 
> > having PSTD even though they are in rear/safe areas. For instance 
> > nurses and doctors.
> >
> > Dave's statements seemed to imply that our troops bring on their own 
> > suffering, which is way out of the ballpark.
> >
> > I would like to see what Dave has to say about it though. Maybe we can 
> > come to common ground.
> >
> > Matt
> >
> > > Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 01:01:12 -0800
> > > From: chasuk at gmail.com
> > > To: mattd2107 at hotmail.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Support for veterans
> > > CC: tiedye at turbonet.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
> > >
> > > On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 11:57 PM, Matt Decker 
> > <mattd2107 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Are you really stating that if " I believe it is mostly the guilt 
> > of their
> > > > actions that causes PTSD"? If so how do you justify the fine 
> > members of the
> > > > armed forces in the battles held within the last 300 years. Should 
> > I remind
> > > > you of ww2 or even the revolutionary war?
> > >
> > > I've tried to unfold this paragraph, but I can't. Just to clarify,
> > > PTSD has existed for as long as there has been war, and arguably for
> > > as long as there have been traumatic experiences. Sigmund Freud
> > > diagnosed it in WWI veterans. Then, it was popularly known as shell
> > > shock. Before WWI, I don't know what it was called, but its defining
> > > criteria are as follows (from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of
> > > Mental Disorders IV, cribbed from Wikipedia):
> > >
> > > A. Exposure to a traumatic event
> > > B. Persistent reexperience
> > > C. Persistent avoidance of stimuli associated with the trauma
> > > D. Persistent symptoms of increased arousal (e.g. difficulty falling
> > > or staying asleep or hypervigilance)
> > > E. Duration of symptoms more than 1 month
> > > F. Significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important
> > > areas of functioning
> > >
> > > > Even if you are stating that this war is unjust, are you 
> > suggesting that
> > > > warriors shouldn't receive care? WTF over.
> > >
> > > Dave hijacked the thread, which is an actionable offense (just
> > > kidding, Dave), but nowhere does he imply that veterans shouldn't
> > > receive care.
> > >
> > > Chas
> >
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