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I NEVER stated that you thought soldiers who have PTSD should not be treated! Never!<br><br>What I did and do say is that you seem to feel soldiers are at fault for getting PTSD and that simply is not the case, in most if not all circumstances. I NEVER IMPLIED OR SAID YOU DON'T BELIEVE THEY SHOULD NOT RECEIVE CARE!<br><br>So get off that.<br><br>J :]<br><br><br>> Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:46:04 -0800<br>> From: tiedye@turbonet.com<br>> To: mattd2107@hotmail.com<br>> CC: vision2020@moscow.com<br>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Support for veterans<br>> <br>> Hi Matt, yes I hope we can find common ground. Sorry it took me so long <br>> to reply I had to move a radio station (again).<br>> <br>> I did not mean to imply that our solders "bring on their own <br>> suffering". I am trying to say that they suffer such debilitating <br>> images of the horrific events they witnessed because of the internal <br>> guilt of knowing that they participated in creating those events in the <br>> first place. (I still didn't say that very well, but I'm at a loss of <br>> how to say it better right now)<br>> <br>> Whether you are pointing a gun, treating the injured, hauling supplies, <br>> or even staying home and paying taxes, you are still participating in <br>> the atrocities.<br>> <br>> I hold no fault to the solders, I see them as victims of the same evil <br>> forces. And I NEVER meant to imply that they should not receive help <br>> (as JF seems to think). Conversely, I would advocate for the best <br>> mental (and physical) health care that we could offer, for the rest of <br>> their lives. (Of course I would advocate that for everyone)<br>> <br>> It starts long before they join the military or go to kill people, it <br>> starts with the mistaken concept that patriotism is a "good thing". <br>> This strange concept is drummed into our brains from birth.<br>> <br>> The best words I've ever heard challenging patriotism were by Emma Goldman.<br>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz-0Shljq88<br>> <br>> -<br>> And for the record, and to answer a few of the other responses. Yes I'm <br>> a veteran, I served in the Navy for six years in the 80's, I climbed to <br>> an E6. I never saw any kind of action while serving (I've never seen <br>> anything horrific in my live, except in pictures). When I enlisted I <br>> vowed to myself that if a Vietnam type situation developed while I was <br>> on active duty that I would not participate, one way or another.<br>> <br>> I base my opinion about the guilt thing mostly from some interviews with <br>> Vietnam vets that I've heard on progressive radio. You won't hear that <br>> sort of interview on the mainstream media who make a HUGE PROFIT from wars.<br>> <br>> Regarding my definition a "human": I do not believe that if you train <br>> some hairless ape to wear clothes, take a shower, drive to work, and <br>> turn on the brainwashing device, that said creature is necessarily a <br>> "human". I haven't since I read the Gom Jabber scene in the book Dune <br>> back in '74. I do not know exactly where I draw the line or if it's <br>> even a line, but I heard a psychologist once say that a full one quarter <br>> of our population simply lacks the trait of empathy, it might be <br>> somewhere around there. Lately I've been referring to a segment of our <br>> population as Ferengi (from Star Trek) since they seem to care more <br>> about profit then anything else. <br>> <br>> Ted, I'll answer your question about what is a "just" or legal war <br>> later. But here's a clue to part of it: who has the power to make war <br>> in our country?<br>> <br>> Dave<br>> <br>> <br>> Matt Decker wrote:<br>> > Chas,<br>> ><br>> > Yes PSTD has been around forever. I am focusing on the USA side of it <br>> > though. To assume that PSTD is a result of a soldiers actions, seems <br>> > to me a little naive. There are many documented cases of soldiers <br>> > having PSTD even though they are in rear/safe areas. For instance <br>> > nurses and doctors.<br>> ><br>> > Dave's statements seemed to imply that our troops bring on their own <br>> > suffering, which is way out of the ballpark.<br>> ><br>> > I would like to see what Dave has to say about it though. Maybe we can <br>> > come to common ground.<br>> ><br>> > Matt<br>> ><br>> > > Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 01:01:12 -0800<br>> > > From: chasuk@gmail.com<br>> > > To: mattd2107@hotmail.com<br>> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Support for veterans<br>> > > CC: tiedye@turbonet.com; vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > ><br>> > > On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 11:57 PM, Matt Decker <br>> > <mattd2107@hotmail.com> wrote:<br>> > ><br>> > > > Are you really stating that if " I believe it is mostly the guilt <br>> > of their<br>> > > > actions that causes PTSD"? If so how do you justify the fine <br>> > members of the<br>> > > > armed forces in the battles held within the last 300 years. Should <br>> > I remind<br>> > > > you of ww2 or even the revolutionary war?<br>> > ><br>> > > I've tried to unfold this paragraph, but I can't. Just to clarify,<br>> > > PTSD has existed for as long as there has been war, and arguably for<br>> > > as long as there have been traumatic experiences. Sigmund Freud<br>> > > diagnosed it in WWI veterans. Then, it was popularly known as shell<br>> > > shock. Before WWI, I don't know what it was called, but its defining<br>> > > criteria are as follows (from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of<br>> > > Mental Disorders IV, cribbed from Wikipedia):<br>> > ><br>> > > A. Exposure to a traumatic event<br>> > > B. Persistent reexperience<br>> > > C. Persistent avoidance of stimuli associated with the trauma<br>> > > D. Persistent symptoms of increased arousal (e.g. difficulty falling<br>> > > or staying asleep or hypervigilance)<br>> > > E. Duration of symptoms more than 1 month<br>> > > F. Significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important<br>> > > areas of functioning<br>> > ><br>> > > > Even if you are stating that this war is unjust, are you <br>> > suggesting that<br>> > > > warriors shouldn't receive care? WTF over.<br>> > ><br>> > > Dave hijacked the thread, which is an actionable offense (just<br>> > > kidding, Dave), but nowhere does he imply that veterans shouldn't<br>> > > receive care.<br>> > ><br>> > > Chas<br>> ><br>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>> > Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. Get it now! <br>> > <http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008> <br>> ><br>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>> ><br>> > =======================================================<br>> > List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br>> > http://www.fsr.net <br>> > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > =======================================================<br>> <br>> <br>> -- <br>> Windows, OSX, or Linux is the same choice as:<br>> McDonalds, Burger King, or a (real) Co-Op.<br>> <br>> =======================================================<br>> List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br>> http://www.fsr.net <br>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> =======================================================<br><br /><hr />Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. <a href='http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008' target='_new'>Get it now!</a></body>
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