[Vision2020] Support for veterans

[Dave]

Hi Matt, yes I hope we can find common ground.  Sorry it took me so long 
to reply I had to move a radio station (again).

I did not mean to imply that our solders "bring on their own 
suffering".  I am trying to say that they suffer such debilitating 
images of the horrific events they witnessed because of the internal 
guilt of knowing that they participated in creating those events in the 
first place.  (I still didn't say that very well, but I'm at a loss of 
how to say it better right now)

Whether you are pointing a gun, treating the injured, hauling supplies, 
or even staying home and paying taxes, you are still participating in 
the atrocities.

I hold no fault to the solders, I see them as victims of the same evil 
forces.  And I NEVER meant to imply that they should not receive help 
(as JF seems to think).  Conversely, I would advocate for the best 
mental (and physical) health care that we could offer, for the rest of 
their lives.  (Of course I would advocate that for everyone)

It starts long before they join the military or go to kill people, it 
starts with the mistaken concept that patriotism is a "good thing".  
This strange concept is drummed into our brains from birth.

The best words I've ever heard challenging patriotism were by Emma Goldman.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz-0Shljq88

-
And for the record, and to answer a few of the other responses.  Yes I'm 
a veteran, I served in the Navy for six years in the 80's, I climbed to 
an E6.  I never saw any kind of action while serving (I've never seen 
anything horrific in my live, except in pictures).  When I enlisted I 
vowed to myself that if a Vietnam type situation developed while I was 
on active duty that I would not participate, one way or another.

I base my opinion about the guilt thing mostly from some interviews with 
Vietnam vets that I've heard on progressive radio.  You won't hear that 
sort of interview on the mainstream media who make a HUGE PROFIT from wars.

Regarding my definition a "human": I do not believe that if you train 
some hairless ape to wear clothes, take a shower, drive to work, and 
turn on the brainwashing device, that said creature is necessarily a 
"human".  I haven't since I read the Gom Jabber scene in the book Dune 
back in '74.   I do not know exactly where I draw the line or if it's 
even a line, but I heard a psychologist once say that a full one quarter 
of our population simply lacks the trait of empathy, it might be 
somewhere around there.  Lately I've been referring to a segment of our 
population as Ferengi (from Star Trek) since they seem to care more 
about profit then anything else. 

Ted, I'll answer your question about what is a "just" or legal war 
later.  But here's a clue to part of it: who has the power to make war 
in our country?

Dave


Matt Decker wrote:
> Chas,
>
> Yes PSTD has been around forever. I am focusing on the USA side of it 
> though. To assume that PSTD is a result of a soldiers actions, seems 
> to me a little naive. There are many documented cases of soldiers 
> having PSTD even though they are in rear/safe areas. For instance 
> nurses and doctors.
>
> Dave's statements seemed to imply that our troops bring on their own 
> suffering, which is way out of the ballpark.
>
> I would like to see what Dave has to say about it though. Maybe we can 
> come to common ground.
>
> Matt
>
> > Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 01:01:12 -0800
> > From: chasuk at gmail.com
> > To: mattd2107 at hotmail.com
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Support for veterans
> > CC: tiedye at turbonet.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 11:57 PM, Matt Decker 
> <mattd2107 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Are you really stating that if " I believe it is mostly the guilt 
> of their
> > > actions that causes PTSD"? If so how do you justify the fine 
> members of the
> > > armed forces in the battles held within the last 300 years. Should 
> I remind
> > > you of ww2 or even the revolutionary war?
> >
> > I've tried to unfold this paragraph, but I can't. Just to clarify,
> > PTSD has existed for as long as there has been war, and arguably for
> > as long as there have been traumatic experiences. Sigmund Freud
> > diagnosed it in WWI veterans. Then, it was popularly known as shell
> > shock. Before WWI, I don't know what it was called, but its defining
> > criteria are as follows (from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of
> > Mental Disorders IV, cribbed from Wikipedia):
> >
> > A. Exposure to a traumatic event
> > B. Persistent reexperience
> > C. Persistent avoidance of stimuli associated with the trauma
> > D. Persistent symptoms of increased arousal (e.g. difficulty falling
> > or staying asleep or hypervigilance)
> > E. Duration of symptoms more than 1 month
> > F. Significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important
> > areas of functioning
> >
> > > Even if you are stating that this war is unjust, are you 
> suggesting that
> > > warriors shouldn't receive care? WTF over.
> >
> > Dave hijacked the thread, which is an actionable offense (just
> > kidding, Dave), but nowhere does he imply that veterans shouldn't
> > receive care.
> >
> > Chas
>
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