[Vision2020] Support for veterans

Mon Feb 18 09:51:30 PST 2008

Dave,

Thanks for the response. 

I did not mean to imply that our solders "bring on their own 
> suffering".  I am trying to say that they suffer such debilitating 
> images of the horrific events they witnessed because of the internal 
> guilt of knowing that they participated in creating those events in the 
> first place.  (I still didn't say that very well, but I'm at a loss of 
> how to say it better right now)

I am curious to see if you meant, "I am trying to say that they ARE MORE PRONE to suffer such debilitating 

> images of the horrific events they witnessed because of the internal 

> guilt of knowing that they participated in creating those events in the 

> first place."

Also, I am curious, such as Ted, to understand what a just war is. WWII in most eyes, has been viewed as necessary war. One that in the long run saved millions of lives. So under a just war, would the amount of cases of PTSD lower? Assuming the same amount of participants of course. Would Clinton's war in Somalia be considered just, what about Desert Storm? As the worlds police force, should we ever enter a war, in the sake humanity. Let's say Sudan or Congo. One that might involve NATO.

I am also trying to understand your view on patriotism.  I feel myself to be patriotic. Yes I like to fly the American flag, and still like to hear a well sung version of the national anthem. For me its pride. Pride knowing we live in the best place in the world. Knowing that yes sometimes we have idiots leading us into an unnecessary war. However, not being shy to be an American. I wouldn't say I am over zealous on the concept, but still understand we as Americans can have some pride about being American.  
So I am wondering if you view my views as robotic like? If so called patriots are molded into such clones incapable of thought. Knowing right between wrong. 

I can only imagine how tough it is to be serving in war. The split decisions one has to make. I feel that no matter how just or unjust the war is, PTSD will occur. 

Got to go Ill try to get back to this later.

Take care,
Matt

> Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:46:04 -0800
> From: tiedye at turbonet.com
> To: mattd2107 at hotmail.com
> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Support for veterans
> 
> Hi Matt, yes I hope we can find common ground.  Sorry it took me so long 
> to reply I had to move a radio station (again).
> 
> I did not mean to imply that our solders "bring on their own 
> suffering".  I am trying to say that they suffer such debilitating 
> images of the horrific events they witnessed because of the internal 
> guilt of knowing that they participated in creating those events in the 
> first place.  (I still didn't say that very well, but I'm at a loss of 
> how to say it better right now)
> 
> Whether you are pointing a gun, treating the injured, hauling supplies, 
> or even staying home and paying taxes, you are still participating in 
> the atrocities.
> 
> I hold no fault to the solders, I see them as victims of the same evil 
> forces.  And I NEVER meant to imply that they should not receive help 
> (as JF seems to think).  Conversely, I would advocate for the best 
> mental (and physical) health care that we could offer, for the rest of 
> their lives.  (Of course I would advocate that for everyone)
> 
> It starts long before they join the military or go to kill people, it 
> starts with the mistaken concept that patriotism is a "good thing".  
> This strange concept is drummed into our brains from birth.
> 
> The best words I've ever heard challenging patriotism were by Emma Goldman.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz-0Shljq88
> 
> -
> And for the record, and to answer a few of the other responses.  Yes I'm 
> a veteran, I served in the Navy for six years in the 80's, I climbed to 
> an E6.  I never saw any kind of action while serving (I've never seen 
> anything horrific in my live, except in pictures).  When I enlisted I 
> vowed to myself that if a Vietnam type situation developed while I was 
> on active duty that I would not participate, one way or another.
> 
> I base my opinion about the guilt thing mostly from some interviews with 
> Vietnam vets that I've heard on progressive radio.  You won't hear that 
> sort of interview on the mainstream media who make a HUGE PROFIT from wars.
> 
> Regarding my definition a "human": I do not believe that if you train 
> some hairless ape to wear clothes, take a shower, drive to work, and 
> turn on the brainwashing device, that said creature is necessarily a 
> "human".  I haven't since I read the Gom Jabber scene in the book Dune 
> back in '74.   I do not know exactly where I draw the line or if it's 
> even a line, but I heard a psychologist once say that a full one quarter 
> of our population simply lacks the trait of empathy, it might be 
> somewhere around there.  Lately I've been referring to a segment of our 
> population as Ferengi (from Star Trek) since they seem to care more 
> about profit then anything else. 
> 
> Ted, I'll answer your question about what is a "just" or legal war 
> later.  But here's a clue to part of it: who has the power to make war 
> in our country?
> 
> Dave
> 
> 
> Matt Decker wrote:
> > Chas,
> >
> > Yes PSTD has been around forever. I am focusing on the USA side of it 
> > though. To assume that PSTD is a result of a soldiers actions, seems 
> > to me a little naive. There are many documented cases of soldiers 
> > having PSTD even though they are in rear/safe areas. For instance 
> > nurses and doctors.
> >
> > Dave's statements seemed to imply that our troops bring on their own 
> > suffering, which is way out of the ballpark.
> >
> > I would like to see what Dave has to say about it though. Maybe we can 
> > come to common ground.
> >
> > Matt
> >
> > > Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 01:01:12 -0800
> > > From: chasuk at gmail.com
> > > To: mattd2107 at hotmail.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Support for veterans
> > > CC: tiedye at turbonet.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
> > >
> > > On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 11:57 PM, Matt Decker 
> > <mattd2107 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Are you really stating that if " I believe it is mostly the guilt 
> > of their
> > > > actions that causes PTSD"? If so how do you justify the fine 
> > members of the
> > > > armed forces in the battles held within the last 300 years. Should 
> > I remind
> > > > you of ww2 or even the revolutionary war?
> > >
> > > I've tried to unfold this paragraph, but I can't. Just to clarify,
> > > PTSD has existed for as long as there has been war, and arguably for
> > > as long as there have been traumatic experiences. Sigmund Freud
> > > diagnosed it in WWI veterans. Then, it was popularly known as shell
> > > shock. Before WWI, I don't know what it was called, but its defining
> > > criteria are as follows (from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of
> > > Mental Disorders IV, cribbed from Wikipedia):
> > >
> > > A. Exposure to a traumatic event
> > > B. Persistent reexperience
> > > C. Persistent avoidance of stimuli associated with the trauma
> > > D. Persistent symptoms of increased arousal (e.g. difficulty falling
> > > or staying asleep or hypervigilance)
> > > E. Duration of symptoms more than 1 month
> > > F. Significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important
> > > areas of functioning
> > >
> > > > Even if you are stating that this war is unjust, are you 
> > suggesting that
> > > > warriors shouldn't receive care? WTF over.
> > >
> > > Dave hijacked the thread, which is an actionable offense (just
> > > kidding, Dave), but nowhere does he imply that veterans shouldn't
> > > receive care.
> > >
> > > Chas
> >
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