[Vision2020] Support for veterans

[Ted Moffett]

Dave wrote:



> .
>
> I believe it is mostly the guilt of their actions that causes PTSD.  You
> friend's story is a good case in point:  He thought he was doing the
> right thing, he was following the orders of his "superiors", he was
> doing the "patriotic" thing.  But when he saw the results of his actions
> it tore him up inside.  (Proving that he is human in my book, humans
> just don't do that sort of thing to each other.)  Wouldn't it have been
> better if he had simply refused to lob those shells?  Or even be there
> in the first place?


Info on Just War Theory:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/war/#2

http://www.iep.utm.edu/j/justwar.htm
----------------------

I don't know whether Dave is a an absolute pacifist or not, nor if not, what

view of "Just War Theory" he might agree with that would define a war worth
fighting.   Answering these questions might clarify what is being asserted.


Dave appears to be addressing what
many, even those who are not pacifists, have determined to be unjust wars,
in Vietnam and Iraq.  I am inclined to interpret his statements as
meaning he is applying a high standard to soldiers to refuse comply with
participation in unjust wars.  It of course follows that if they do not
expose
themselves to the horrors of war, by refusing to participate, whether on the

battlefield or treating the injured or witnessing civilian casualties, they
are not
likely to get PTSD.  And when war is compelled by leaders who lie to their
citizens, as I think occurred in the Iraq war, this case demonstrates the
responsibility every citizen has to inform themselves about the critical
issues
being presented to justify war.  If the war is determined to be unjust,  not

participating can be aruged is a moral duty. Assuming our leaders are always
wise, just and noble, is naive beyond belief.

I wonder what war Dave might agree was forth the fight, if any, and thus
worth the PTSD that probably occurred as a result?  Many agree that stopping
Hitler was a "just war."  Many agree that Vietnam war and the Iraq war are
not
"just wars."

War, even the necessary ones, are always abominable inhuman horrors,
that reduce many human beings to barbarians.  There are always some
who participate in war who commit acts of brutality and cruelty that they
probably would never have committed otherwise.

Killing in war is, at best, a necessary evil, that should only be engaged in
after all
other options to solve the problems involved have failed  I don't think
killing
should ever be celebrated.

Having said that, those who have fought in war to defend family and nation,
risking their lives, I should not have to add, should receive all the
treatment
they need to assist with the injuries, both mental and physical, incurred in
war,
and assistance with the basic necessities of life.  The number of homeless
veterans
on the streets is rather astonishing.

Ted Moffett



> Tom Hansen wrote:
> > I have several friends diagnosed with various levels of PTSD, Dave.
> >
> > PTSD is not brought on by the lies that send troops into combat.  It
> > is brought on by the experiences these troops are forced to endure in
> > combat.
> >
> > Life at home here in the states consists of a wide range of parameters
> > that define "acceptable behavior" based upon family values and public
> > mores.  Ninety-nine percent of the time life goes on day-by-day where
> > every action can be logically and ethically explained.  You take a 18-
> > or 19- 20-something year old person out of that warm, fuzzy
> > environment, give him/her a gun and, in a period of four months (even
> > shorter now) drop him/her into an environment where those family
> > values and public mores do not exist, and expose him/her to a most
> > inhumane daily blood-bath routine, and expect that soldier to make
> > sense of it all . . . and you will understand what brings on PTSD.
> >
> > For instance . . . I have a friend who was in the Marines during
> > Vietnam.  I met him while attending North Idaho College.  He was, what
> > we in the Army call a "cannon cocker".  He loaded artillery shells
> > into artillery pieces (cannons, mortars, etc.).  For almost a year his
> > unit shelled villages in his region.  To make things worse, his unit
> > was firing white phosphorus shells (considered illegal by the Geneva
> > Convention).  One of the "benefits" of applying indirect fire
> > (cannons, mortars, etc.) is that you are impersonal to the damage
> > caused by the very cannons you fire.  Well, to make a long story
> > short, he (my friend) and his squad were called on to recon a village
> > they had just shelled, to apprehend any survivors as potential
> > prisoners for interrogation.  What he witnessed, as his squad reconned
> > the village that day (and for several subsequent patrols over the next
> > few weeks) turned a very outgoing, friendly, open-hearted person into
> > somebody difficult to define or describe.  He had been put on
> > medication since his discharge in 1969.  He's been married twice,
> > divorced twice, and attempted suicide once.  He is currently a patient
> > at American Lakes Veteran Hospital, a hospital whose budget is only a
> > few dollars more than mine.
> >
> > So, you see, Dave.  It isn't as much a matter of keeping the troops
> > informed as to why they are going into combat as much as it is
> > providing therapy and care to return them back to that neighborhood
> > they left behind.
> >
> > Pro patria,
> >
> > Tom Hansen
> > Moscow, Idaho
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > > Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:28:29 -0800
> > > From: tiedye at turbonet.com
> > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Support for veterans
> > >
> > > "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."
> > >
> > > To prevent our troops from getting PTSD we have to train our kids
> > not to
> > > believe the lies and then go overseas and kill people, it drives you
> > insane!
> > >
> > > Did you know that more Vietnam vets have committed suicide then died
> in
> > > the war?
> > >
> > > My kids have clear instructions should they institute the draft while
> > > they are of age: run north, run south, run underground, or do the
> time,
> > > but don't kill people.
> > >
> > > And remember that following an un-lawful order is an un-lawful act.
> > >
> > > Military recruiters are committing an un-lawful act by encouraging our
> > > kids to follow the un-lawful orders to ship out and fight an illegal
> > > war. We should stop these people from committing such war crimes.
> > >
> > > Dave
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
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