[Vision2020] Support for veterans
J Ford
privatejf32 at hotmail.com
Sun Feb 17 11:15:17 PST 2008
This para seems to state one thing when I think it is saying another or at least trying to:
"I believe it is mostly the guilt of their actions that causes PTSD. You
friend's story is a good case in point: He thought he was doing the
right thing, he was following the orders of his "superiors", he was
doing the "patriotic" thing. But when he saw the results of his actions
it tore him up inside. (Proving that he is human in my book, humans
just don't do that sort of thing to each other.) Wouldn't it have been
better if he had simply refused to lob those shells? Or even be there
in the first place?"
You acknowledge that the soldier thought he was doing the right thing; therefore he was not acting illegally,
therefore the PTSD is not of his own making.
Now if he KNEW what he was doing was wrong and did it anyway, THAT would put him on the list of illegal acts
committed and the PTSD that he gets from that would be of his own making. However, that was not the case
in MANY instances.
And I recognize that you do not state, in EITHER case, that the soldier should not receive treatment. I just think
you supposition of them creating the problem was either ill stated or not well-enough thought out.
I would like it if you'd elaborate on what you were trying to say.
J :]
> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 18:00:22 -0800
> From: tiedye at turbonet.com
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Support for veterans
>
> You miss my point Tom. If they didn't believe the lies, then they
> wouldn't follow the un-lawful orders. If they didn't follow the
> un-lawful orders, they wouldn't have to endure the experiences which
> drive them insane.
>
> I believe it is mostly the guilt of their actions that causes PTSD. You
> friend's story is a good case in point: He thought he was doing the
> right thing, he was following the orders of his "superiors", he was
> doing the "patriotic" thing. But when he saw the results of his actions
> it tore him up inside. (Proving that he is human in my book, humans
> just don't do that sort of thing to each other.) Wouldn't it have been
> better if he had simply refused to lob those shells? Or even be there
> in the first place?
>
> Have you ever seen the movie: Sir, No Sir!? It is an awesome
> documentary that details how it was the solders themselves who stopped
> Vietnam, not the protests, not the politics, but it was the solders
> simply refusing their (un-lawful) orders that stopped it.
> The parallels to todays' so-called-war are astounding, it's also a great
> flashback to the 60's. There's a trailer on youtube.
>
> The other day someone on KRFP was talking about how the army is hiding
> its very high "desertion" rate. I just hope is doesn't come to the
> fraging that happened in Nam., as that could cause serious PTSD too.
> And, oh yeah, kill a few officers who only think that they are doing the
> right thing by following orders.
>
> Dave
>
>
> Tom Hansen wrote:
> > I have several friends diagnosed with various levels of PTSD, Dave.
> >
> > PTSD is not brought on by the lies that send troops into combat. It
> > is brought on by the experiences these troops are forced to endure in
> > combat.
> >
> > Life at home here in the states consists of a wide range of parameters
> > that define "acceptable behavior" based upon family values and public
> > mores. Ninety-nine percent of the time life goes on day-by-day where
> > every action can be logically and ethically explained. You take a 18-
> > or 19- 20-something year old person out of that warm, fuzzy
> > environment, give him/her a gun and, in a period of four months (even
> > shorter now) drop him/her into an environment where those family
> > values and public mores do not exist, and expose him/her to a most
> > inhumane daily blood-bath routine, and expect that soldier to make
> > sense of it all . . . and you will understand what brings on PTSD.
> >
> > For instance . . . I have a friend who was in the Marines during
> > Vietnam. I met him while attending North Idaho College. He was, what
> > we in the Army call a "cannon cocker". He loaded artillery shells
> > into artillery pieces (cannons, mortars, etc.). For almost a year his
> > unit shelled villages in his region. To make things worse, his unit
> > was firing white phosphorus shells (considered illegal by the Geneva
> > Convention). One of the "benefits" of applying indirect fire
> > (cannons, mortars, etc.) is that you are impersonal to the damage
> > caused by the very cannons you fire. Well, to make a long story
> > short, he (my friend) and his squad were called on to recon a village
> > they had just shelled, to apprehend any survivors as potential
> > prisoners for interrogation. What he witnessed, as his squad reconned
> > the village that day (and for several subsequent patrols over the next
> > few weeks) turned a very outgoing, friendly, open-hearted person into
> > somebody difficult to define or describe. He had been put on
> > medication since his discharge in 1969. He's been married twice,
> > divorced twice, and attempted suicide once. He is currently a patient
> > at American Lakes Veteran Hospital, a hospital whose budget is only a
> > few dollars more than mine.
> >
> > So, you see, Dave. It isn't as much a matter of keeping the troops
> > informed as to why they are going into combat as much as it is
> > providing therapy and care to return them back to that neighborhood
> > they left behind.
> >
> > Pro patria,
> >
> > Tom Hansen
> > Moscow, Idaho
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > > Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:28:29 -0800
> > > From: tiedye at turbonet.com
> > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Support for veterans
> > >
> > > "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."
> > >
> > > To prevent our troops from getting PTSD we have to train our kids
> > not to
> > > believe the lies and then go overseas and kill people, it drives you
> > insane!
> > >
> > > Did you know that more Vietnam vets have committed suicide then died in
> > > the war?
> > >
> > > My kids have clear instructions should they institute the draft while
> > > they are of age: run north, run south, run underground, or do the time,
> > > but don't kill people.
> > >
> > > And remember that following an un-lawful order is an un-lawful act.
> > >
> > > Military recruiters are committing an un-lawful act by encouraging our
> > > kids to follow the un-lawful orders to ship out and fight an illegal
> > > war. We should stop these people from committing such war crimes.
> > >
> > > Dave
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
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>
>
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