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This para seems to state one thing when I think it is saying another or at least trying to:<br><pre>"I believe it is mostly the guilt of their actions that causes PTSD. You <br>friend's story is a good case in point: He thought he was doing the <br>right thing, he was following the orders of his "superiors", he was <br>doing the "patriotic" thing. But when he saw the results of his actions <br>it tore him up inside. (Proving that he is human in my book, humans <br>just don't do that sort of thing to each other.) Wouldn't it have been <br>better if he had simply refused to lob those shells? Or even be there <br>in the first place?"<br><br>You acknowledge that the soldier thought he was doing the right thing; therefore he was not acting illegally,<br>therefore the PTSD is not of his own making.<br><br>Now if he KNEW what he was doing was wrong and did it anyway, THAT would put him on the list of illegal acts <br>committed and the PTSD that he gets from that would be of his own making. However, that was not the case <br>in MANY instances.<br><br>And I recognize that you do not state, in EITHER case, that the soldier should not receive treatment. I just think<br>you supposition of them creating the problem was either ill stated or not well-enough thought out.<br><br>I would like it if you'd elaborate on what you were trying to say.<br></pre>J :]<br><br><br>> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 18:00:22 -0800<br>> From: tiedye@turbonet.com<br>> To: vision2020@moscow.com<br>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Support for veterans<br>> <br>> You miss my point Tom. If they didn't believe the lies, then they <br>> wouldn't follow the un-lawful orders. If they didn't follow the <br>> un-lawful orders, they wouldn't have to endure the experiences which <br>> drive them insane.<br>> <br>> I believe it is mostly the guilt of their actions that causes PTSD. You <br>> friend's story is a good case in point: He thought he was doing the <br>> right thing, he was following the orders of his "superiors", he was <br>> doing the "patriotic" thing. But when he saw the results of his actions <br>> it tore him up inside. (Proving that he is human in my book, humans <br>> just don't do that sort of thing to each other.) Wouldn't it have been <br>> better if he had simply refused to lob those shells? Or even be there <br>> in the first place?<br>> <br>> Have you ever seen the movie: Sir, No Sir!? It is an awesome <br>> documentary that details how it was the solders themselves who stopped <br>> Vietnam, not the protests, not the politics, but it was the solders <br>> simply refusing their (un-lawful) orders that stopped it.<br>> The parallels to todays' so-called-war are astounding, it's also a great <br>> flashback to the 60's. There's a trailer on youtube.<br>> <br>> The other day someone on KRFP was talking about how the army is hiding <br>> its very high "desertion" rate. I just hope is doesn't come to the <br>> fraging that happened in Nam., as that could cause serious PTSD too. <br>> And, oh yeah, kill a few officers who only think that they are doing the <br>> right thing by following orders.<br>> <br>> Dave<br>> <br>> <br>> Tom Hansen wrote:<br>> > I have several friends diagnosed with various levels of PTSD, Dave.<br>> > <br>> > PTSD is not brought on by the lies that send troops into combat. It <br>> > is brought on by the experiences these troops are forced to endure in <br>> > combat.<br>> > <br>> > Life at home here in the states consists of a wide range of parameters <br>> > that define "acceptable behavior" based upon family values and public <br>> > mores. Ninety-nine percent of the time life goes on day-by-day where <br>> > every action can be logically and ethically explained. You take a 18- <br>> > or 19- 20-something year old person out of that warm, fuzzy <br>> > environment, give him/her a gun and, in a period of four months (even <br>> > shorter now) drop him/her into an environment where those family <br>> > values and public mores do not exist, and expose him/her to a most <br>> > inhumane daily blood-bath routine, and expect that soldier to make <br>> > sense of it all . . . and you will understand what brings on PTSD.<br>> > <br>> > For instance . . . I have a friend who was in the Marines during <br>> > Vietnam. I met him while attending North Idaho College. He was, what <br>> > we in the Army call a "cannon cocker". He loaded artillery shells <br>> > into artillery pieces (cannons, mortars, etc.). For almost a year his <br>> > unit shelled villages in his region. To make things worse, his unit <br>> > was firing white phosphorus shells (considered illegal by the Geneva <br>> > Convention). One of the "benefits" of applying indirect fire <br>> > (cannons, mortars, etc.) is that you are impersonal to the damage <br>> > caused by the very cannons you fire. Well, to make a long story <br>> > short, he (my friend) and his squad were called on to recon a village <br>> > they had just shelled, to apprehend any survivors as potential <br>> > prisoners for interrogation. What he witnessed, as his squad reconned <br>> > the village that day (and for several subsequent patrols over the next <br>> > few weeks) turned a very outgoing, friendly, open-hearted person into <br>> > somebody difficult to define or describe. He had been put on <br>> > medication since his discharge in 1969. He's been married twice, <br>> > divorced twice, and attempted suicide once. He is currently a patient <br>> > at American Lakes Veteran Hospital, a hospital whose budget is only a <br>> > few dollars more than mine.<br>> > <br>> > So, you see, Dave. It isn't as much a matter of keeping the troops <br>> > informed as to why they are going into combat as much as it is <br>> > providing therapy and care to return them back to that neighborhood <br>> > they left behind.<br>> > <br>> > Pro patria,<br>> > <br>> > Tom Hansen<br>> > Moscow, Idaho<br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>> ><br>> > > Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:28:29 -0800<br>> > > From: tiedye@turbonet.com<br>> > > To: vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Support for veterans<br>> > ><br>> > > "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."<br>> > ><br>> > > To prevent our troops from getting PTSD we have to train our kids <br>> > not to<br>> > > believe the lies and then go overseas and kill people, it drives you <br>> > insane!<br>> > ><br>> > > Did you know that more Vietnam vets have committed suicide then died in<br>> > > the war?<br>> > ><br>> > > My kids have clear instructions should they institute the draft while<br>> > > they are of age: run north, run south, run underground, or do the time,<br>> > > but don't kill people.<br>> > ><br>> > > And remember that following an un-lawful order is an un-lawful act.<br>> > ><br>> > > Military recruiters are committing an un-lawful act by encouraging our<br>> > > kids to follow the un-lawful orders to ship out and fight an illegal<br>> > > war. We should stop these people from committing such war crimes.<br>> > ><br>> > > Dave<br>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>> ><br>> > =======================================================<br>> > List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br>> > http://www.fsr.net <br>> > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > =======================================================<br>> <br>> <br>> -- <br>> Windows, OSX, or Linux is the same choice as:<br>> McDonalds, Burger King, or a (real) Co-Op.<br>> <br>> =======================================================<br>> List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br>> http://www.fsr.net <br>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> =======================================================<br><br /><hr />Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. 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