<div> </div>
<div>Dave wrote:</div>
<div><br> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">.<br><br>I believe it is mostly the guilt of their actions that causes PTSD. You<br>friend's story is a good case in point: He thought he was doing the<br>
right thing, he was following the orders of his "superiors", he was<br>doing the "patriotic" thing. But when he saw the results of his actions<br>it tore him up inside. (Proving that he is human in my book, humans<br>
just don't do that sort of thing to each other.) Wouldn't it have been<br>better if he had simply refused to lob those shells? Or even be there<br>in the first place?</blockquote>
<div> </div>
<div>Info on Just War Theory:</div>
<div> </div>
<div><a href="http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/war/#2">http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/war/#2</a></div><br>
<div><a href="http://www.iep.utm.edu/j/justwar.htm">http://www.iep.utm.edu/j/justwar.htm</a></div>
<div>----------------------</div><br>
<div>I don't know whether Dave is a an absolute pacifist or not, nor if not, what </div>
<div>view of "Just War Theory" he might agree with that would define a war worth </div>
<div>fighting. Answering these questions might clarify what is being asserted. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Dave appears to be addressing what </div>
<div>many, even those who are not pacifists, have determined to be unjust wars, </div>
<div>in Vietnam and Iraq. I am inclined to interpret his statements as </div>
<div>meaning he is applying a high standard to soldiers to refuse comply with</div>
<div>participation in unjust wars. It of course follows that if they do not expose</div>
<div>themselves to the horrors of war, by refusing to participate, whether on the </div>
<div>battlefield or treating the injured or witnessing civilian casualties, they are not </div>
<div>likely to get PTSD. And when war is compelled by leaders who lie to their </div>
<div>citizens, as I think occurred in the Iraq war, this case demonstrates the </div>
<div>responsibility every citizen has to inform themselves about the critical issues</div>
<div>being presented to justify war. If the war is determined to be unjust, not </div>
<div>participating can be aruged is a moral duty. Assuming our leaders are always</div>
<div>wise, just and noble, is naive beyond belief.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I wonder what war Dave might agree was forth the fight, if any, and thus</div>
<div>worth the PTSD that probably occurred as a result? Many agree that stopping</div>
<div>Hitler was a "just war." Many agree that Vietnam war and the Iraq war are not</div>
<div>"just wars."</div>
<div> </div>
<div>War, even the necessary ones, are always abominable inhuman horrors, </div>
<div>that reduce many human beings to barbarians. There are always some</div>
<div>who participate in war who commit acts of brutality and cruelty that they</div>
<div>probably would never have committed otherwise. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Killing in war is, at best, a necessary evil, that should only be engaged in after all </div>
<div>other options to solve the problems involved have failed I don't think killing </div>
<div>should ever be celebrated. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Having said that, those who have fought in war to defend family and nation, </div>
<div>risking their lives, I should not have to add, should receive all the treatment </div>
<div>they need to assist with the injuries, both mental and physical, incurred in war, </div>
<div>and assistance with the basic necessities of life. The number of homeless veterans </div>
<div>on the streets is rather astonishing.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Ted Moffett</div>
<div><br> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Tom Hansen wrote:<br>> I have several friends diagnosed with various levels of PTSD, Dave.<br>><br>> PTSD is not brought on by the lies that send troops into combat. It<br>
> is brought on by the experiences these troops are forced to endure in<br>> combat.<br>><br>> Life at home here in the states consists of a wide range of parameters<br>> that define "acceptable behavior" based upon family values and public<br>
> mores. Ninety-nine percent of the time life goes on day-by-day where<br>> every action can be logically and ethically explained. You take a 18-<br>> or 19- 20-something year old person out of that warm, fuzzy<br>
> environment, give him/her a gun and, in a period of four months (even<br>> shorter now) drop him/her into an environment where those family<br>> values and public mores do not exist, and expose him/her to a most<br>
> inhumane daily blood-bath routine, and expect that soldier to make<br>> sense of it all . . . and you will understand what brings on PTSD.<br>><br>> For instance . . . I have a friend who was in the Marines during<br>
> Vietnam. I met him while attending North Idaho College. He was, what<br>> we in the Army call a "cannon cocker". He loaded artillery shells<br>> into artillery pieces (cannons, mortars, etc.). For almost a year his<br>
> unit shelled villages in his region. To make things worse, his unit<br>> was firing white phosphorus shells (considered illegal by the Geneva<br>> Convention). One of the "benefits" of applying indirect fire<br>
> (cannons, mortars, etc.) is that you are impersonal to the damage<br>> caused by the very cannons you fire. Well, to make a long story<br>> short, he (my friend) and his squad were called on to recon a village<br>
> they had just shelled, to apprehend any survivors as potential<br>> prisoners for interrogation. What he witnessed, as his squad reconned<br>> the village that day (and for several subsequent patrols over the next<br>
> few weeks) turned a very outgoing, friendly, open-hearted person into<br>> somebody difficult to define or describe. He had been put on<br>> medication since his discharge in 1969. He's been married twice,<br>
> divorced twice, and attempted suicide once. He is currently a patient<br>> at American Lakes Veteran Hospital, a hospital whose budget is only a<br>> few dollars more than mine.<br>><br>> So, you see, Dave. It isn't as much a matter of keeping the troops<br>
> informed as to why they are going into combat as much as it is<br>> providing therapy and care to return them back to that neighborhood<br>> they left behind.<br>><br>> Pro patria,<br>><br>> Tom Hansen<br>
> Moscow, Idaho<br>><br>><br>><br>><br>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>><br>> > Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:28:29 -0800<br>> > From: <a href="mailto:tiedye@turbonet.com">tiedye@turbonet.com</a><br>
> > To: <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Support for veterans<br>> ><br>> > "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."<br>
> ><br>> > To prevent our troops from getting PTSD we have to train our kids<br>> not to<br>> > believe the lies and then go overseas and kill people, it drives you<br>> insane!<br>> ><br>> > Did you know that more Vietnam vets have committed suicide then died in<br>
> > the war?<br>> ><br>> > My kids have clear instructions should they institute the draft while<br>> > they are of age: run north, run south, run underground, or do the time,<br>> > but don't kill people.<br>
> ><br>> > And remember that following an un-lawful order is an un-lawful act.<br>> ><br>> > Military recruiters are committing an un-lawful act by encouraging our<br>> > kids to follow the un-lawful orders to ship out and fight an illegal<br>
> > war. We should stop these people from committing such war crimes.<br>> ><br>> > Dave<br>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>><br>> =======================================================<br>
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