[Vision2020] Trades and school

[Donovan Arnold]

Paul,
   
  I think if we give people the ability to meet their basic needs they will become better educated. It is hard to learn on an empty stomach. It is hard to do homework in the back of a station wagon. I think that the people that usually do well, go to college, get advanced degrees, are ones that usually have higher means to do so. 
   
  Best,
   
  Donovan

Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
  I was going to post something on this topic, so I'll tack it onto this 
thread since it relates and since the subject matches. What is it that 
we want of our children when they graduate? Do we want recent graduates 
to be able to make a living in a trade? Do we want students to be able 
to go to college so they can make a living using a higher degree?

It seems to me that there needs to be more than that. The way I look at 
it, there is a body of knowledge that has been teased out of the world 
over the generations by our ancestors. The generations that are 
currently alive today are it's keepers. We have a responsibility to do 
a few things with that body of knowledge. We must first use it - thus 
we must each learn what we can of it and how to employ it to make our 
lives better. This is a lifelong endeavor. This includes the 
techniques of trade craft as well as the engineering sciences, and many 
of the other higher education degrees such as history or English. It 
also includes such ideas as learning from our mistakes and not repeating 
history yet again. We must also protect this body of knowledge. We 
must instill in our students the worthiness of learning for it's own 
sake, so that this knowledge will not disappear in some upcoming Dark 
Age. And we must add to it. We must have the knowledge, the genius, 
the will, and the ambition to tease yet more secrets out of Nature.

People need to feed themselves and their families. This is obviously 
important. But to limit ourselves only to that will lead to a 
diminished body of knowledge and will ultimately result in our decline 
as a species.

What does everyone else think about this?

In response to Tom's question, I think that there is a minimum of 
information that is used by all trades. Some math, reading 
comprehension, the ability to memorize, and the application of logic 
spring to mind. I'm sure there are others. I imagine that all trades 
require further training, although that training may be done in the old 
way of a master training an apprentice. Many of the trades require 
licenses, exams, and/or the ability to perform on command. Some trades, 
such as your example of an x-ray technician, involve more formal 
training than others. 

Just as an aside, I would classify my current job as a computer 
programmer / analyst as a trade as opposed to an engineering 
discipline. It requires a mixture of skill, knowledge, and experience. 
A computer science degree from a university certainly helps, but it can 
also be picked up by a talented 12-year old to one degree or another 
without formal training. It's my hope that more actual engineering 
traits will be used in this discipline, such as measurements of 
correctness and more formal ways of determining if there are bugs in the 
code. Some day, we will license our programmers so that there will be 
less shoddy, bug-ridden code out there.

Paul



Tom Ivie wrote:
> I've always wondered how many of the trades require math, science, 
> english, etc. You know the core stuff you learn in school. I keep 
> hearing the term trades and I don't really understand what that 
> means. I have friends that became plumbers and electricians after 
> graduating from college. I remember from a math class in high school 
> where we designed roof trusses using math. I think we did angles and 
> some algebra using many real life examples of numerous occupations. 
> The one that stands out the most to me was an x-ray technician. Do 
> most trades require further training beyond high school? 
>
>
>
> Tom & Liz Ivie
>
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